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Re: [Amps] B- questions

To: dezrat1242@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] B- questions
From: Roger <sub1@rogerhalstead.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:35:36 -0500
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>

Bill, W6WRT wrote:
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>
> On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:05:10 -0600, Rob Atkinson <ranchorobbo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Bill thanks for your answer.  I appreciate the lack of gobbldygook
>> But I fail to understand why all this metering of B- is somehow safe,
>> but doing the same thing with B+ is not. 
At the bottom end of the chain with a resistor and meter to ground there 
are only a few volts to ground. Only if the meter "and shunt" open is 
the true B- at that point. When measuring at the B+ line you have the 
full B+ inside the meter case.  OTOH  "IF" the meter is across the 
bottom resistor in the PS bleeder chain AND it's protected by a good 
hefty diode (I really dislike the term anti parallel...which logically 
means series, but is used to mean "parallel diodes of opposing polarity" 
and requires a expanded definition)

Rephrasing what others have said, the diodes are purely a safety device 
with the protection of the operator and meter (if lucky).  They play no 
part in protecting the tube or amplifier circuitry.

As I believe Carl has said, they are a short cut. Amplifiers need fast 
acting circuitry to shut down all power in case of a fault be they 
triodes, tetrodes, or pentodes. In solid state amps this type of 
protection is a given due to the nature and price of semiconductors. 
Although they add complexity and are seldom activated, they would be 
well worth including , but then the manufacturers would be competing on 
quality and not price.

73

Roger (K8RI)

>>  If B- is around minus 3000
>> v. it seems to me that having only a dinky resistor and/or a diode and
>> meter between that and the chassis is dangerous.  There must be
>> something counterintuitive about this I am missing.
>>     
>
> REPLY:
>
>  The issue is safety for the operator, not safety for the meter. 
>
> The problem with B+ metering is it puts the entire B+ on the meter, which is
> normally mounted where someone could touch it. Personally, I don't trust 1/16
> inch of plastic to protect me from many kV. In fact, with many old meters, the
> adjusting screw is metal, which places the B+ right out in the open, ready to
> kill. With the meter in the B- circuit and protected by diodes, no more than 
> one
> volt or so appears on the meter. 
>
> Regarding the "dinky" diode between B- and chassis, conventional silicon 
> diodes
> which are damaged by a massive arc always fail shorted, never open.
That depends on the size of the diode and it's ability to handle 
current.  A truly "dinky" diode", compared to the capability of the PS 
is likely to fail catestropically and open. IOW, nothing left but a pair 
of leads, while a heftier diode will indeed fail shorted.
I've seen many diodes blown apart, but those were some pretty 
substantial power supplies too. I agree that in the amateur level power 
supplies the likelihood of the diode failing open is vanishingly small, 
but I don't like to use the word, "never". Of course in the case of a 
major short the meter also fails in a rather spectacular (and smelly) 
manner.

>  That is what
> you want for protection. The only thing you would notice with a shorted diode 
> is
> the meter(s) no longer indicate any current.
That depends on the base meter movement.  If it's in the microamp range 
you'll probably get some reading even with the shorted diode.
>  That's the safest way.
>
> 73, Bill W6WRT
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