Carl wrote:
> I think the answer is pretty simple.
>
> The 240V comes to the panel and the ground at both ends is marginal at
> best. when running multiple 120V circuits off the panel the balance is
> not perfect and the resistance in the poor grounds causes a voltage
> drop, especially when a heavy 240V load comes on such as the deep well
> pump, the electric range, any ham amp, Jenn Air, etc. The drop in the
> #12's is less than #14, especially in longer runs since this house is
> 80' long with a full basement, 2 upper levels and a walk in attic that
> houses a couple of the heavy draw 120V vintage stations plus
> thermostat controlled 240V baseboard heaters when needed.
I may be missing something but:
For the underground service to a 200 amp panel consumers said #6, we put
in about 200' of #2, yet I had to use 3 conductor 00 Copper, or 3
conductor 000 aluminum and try to find 3-00 Copper now days. Still, I
don't see where the ground is important for the circuits. Safety,
certainly, but not for operation as the hot sides return through the
neutral and the neutral runs from the sub panel all the way to the pole
pig. I can see where long runs of #12 could cause excessive power drop,
but again, not the ground, or lack thereoff...
>
> In addition I believe the 240V conductors from the pole are undersized
> since they werent changed when I
If the power company puts it in it's going to be undersize as they
figure it'll be either air cooled or conduction cooled underground. IIRC
underground does require a larger wire than above ground
73
Roger (K8RI)
> upgraded to a 200A panel from the old 100A service. The utility
> company told me it didnt need an upgrade 20 years ago. Maybe I should
> talk to the new owners. Plus Im at the end of the pole pig run.
>
> Carl
> KM1H
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger" <sub1@rogerhalstead.com>
> Cc: <amps@contesting.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>
>
>>
>>
>> Gary Patterson wrote:
>>> I am confused, does return current actually go through "dirt"
>>> ground and cause dimming of lights in a house. I can't get my mind
>>> around that???
>>>
>>>
>> Me either. Here, the neutral comes in from the pole with the two 110
>> VAC lines (220 volts between them) That neutral is grounded/earthed at
>> both ends. In the house the neutral ties to the neutral and ground buss
>> in the main breaker panel, which is then tied to to the 1, 2, or 3
>> required ground rods. You could remove the ground lead to the ground
>> rods entirely and the electrical system would never know the difference
>> under normal circumstances.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Roger (K8RI)
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: km1h@jeremy.mv.com
>>>> To: n7fcf@hctc.com; amps@contesting.com
>>>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 10:09:57 -0500
>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>
>>>> In NH the homeowner can do all his own wiring subject to
>>>> inspection; this
>>>> includes new construction. When I moved here in 1989 I added a huge
>>>> addition
>>>> to an 1830's farmhouse which I pretty much gutted and rebuilt with
>>>> insulation, low E double pane windows, etc. The basement of the
>>>> addition was
>>>> over wired for multi bench ham use plus other benches for building
>>>> amps, and
>>>> repairs.
>>>>
>>>> The complete house was wired with #12 to the 120V wall outlets
>>>> which are
>>>> standard 15A variety. I did that to minimize dimming which is
>>>> common on this
>>>> hilltop due to poor grounds.....rock makes a poor conductor. The
>>>> ground
>>>> rods are a pair of spaced 8' driven at a shallow angle since solid
>>>> ledge is
>>>> less than 2' down. The best I could do is place them under the roof
>>>> drip
>>>> zone.
>>>>
>>>> My guide was the 1987 NEC manual which was current at the time.
>>>>
>>>> The inspector is a local excavator contractor who never had an
>>>> electricians
>>>> license. In fact he still holds the position. I think we just broke
>>>> 13K in
>>>> population.
>>>>
>>>> Later I bonded all the heating and domestic water copper pipes
>>>> together with
>>>> #6 and tied those into the panel ground. Distances were all within
>>>> 6' of the
>>>> panel.
>>>>
>>>> Then of course comes the ham equipment grounds, feedline grounds
>>>> (all CATV
>>>> or Andrew hardline), tower grounds ( I have 4 up to 250' away all
>>>> guyed
>>>> which means 3 more grounds per tower), vertical radial grounds (80
>>>> & 160M 4
>>>> Squares), Beverage grounds ( there are 7 and the common hardline
>>>> feed is
>>>> 750' away) and whatever else which seems to throw the NEC manual
>>>> out the
>>>> window.
>>>>
>>>> You can see why many of us are confused and pretty much ignore all
>>>> the NEC
>>>> nonsense after the 1987 or earlier revisions.
>>>>
>>>> Carl
>>>> KM1H
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Carr" <n7fcf@hctc.com>
>>>> To: "Alex Eban" <alexeban@gmail.com>; <jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com>;
>>>> <amps@contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:52 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I spent my working life wireing and the later half as a state
>>>>> electrical
>>>>> inspector. I am a certified master electrician and national;y
>>>>> certified
>>>>> electrical inspector retired since 2000.
>>>>> reading some of these post's, although there isn't a thing wrong with
>>>>> doing
>>>>> your own wiring, I would heartily recomend you have your work
>>>>> inspected by
>>>>> the local electrical inspector. When it comes to bonding and
>>>>> grounding,
>>>>> what
>>>>> you don't know can kill you.
>>>>> Jim
>>>>> N7FCF
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Eban" <alexeban@gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com>; <amps@contesting.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 11:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is true!
>>>>> The point to watch, in my opinion, is to take the branch out from
>>>>> the main
>>>>> panel BEFORE the GFI, if used. A local GFI can then be added at
>>>>> the remote
>>>>> location and the local ground strapped there to the neutral coming
>>>>> from
>>>>> the
>>>>> main inlet. An added advantage of this is that if the local GFI
>>>>> trips you
>>>>> don't have to run to the house to lift it.
>>>>> Alex 4Z5KS
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com
>>>>> [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of jimsmitheguard-a@yahoo.com
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 5:10 AM
>>>>> To: amps@contesting.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark,
>>>>> The neutral and ground must be bonded together at the main panel
>>>>> as stated
>>>>> on the reflector many times. The ground, and neutral bus are often
>>>>> one in
>>>>> the same in a residential panel.
>>>>>
>>>>> The detached barn requires it's own service. This service must
>>>>> have it's
>>>>> own
>>>>> grounding electrodes to limit the impedance to ground at this
>>>>> location,
>>>>> and
>>>>> the neutral must be bonded to ground here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the barn service panel is fed from the house service panel, You
>>>>> must
>>>>> also
>>>>> bond the services together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Smith, EEKQ6UV
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue, 11/3/09, Mark Robinson <markrob@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Mark Robinson <markrob@mindspring.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] TL922 Power Plugs
>>>>> To: "Ian Hill - K8MM" <ihk8mm@charter.net>
>>>>> Cc: amps@contesting.com
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 8:32 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My Neutral and Ground is connected at the main panel but also at
>>>>> the barn
>>>>> 300 feet away. I am running a 3 wire 100 amp 240v power 4 00
>>>>> aluminum line
>>>>> to the barn from a 100 amp 240v breaker located in my main
>>>>> distribution
>>>>> box.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't like the idea of a gnd neutral tie that far away from the
>>>>> barn,
>>>>> so
>>>>> I tied them together at the barn with a second ground rod located
>>>>> at the
>>>>> barn. Is that such a bad idea?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Amps mailing list
>>>>> Amps@contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Amps mailing list
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>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>> Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.50/2481 - Release Date:
>>>>> 11/04/09
>>>>> 11:51:00
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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