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Re: [Amps] pi-net spreadsheet question

To: "Vic K2VCO" <vic@rakefet.com>, "Jim Thomson" <Jim.thom@telus.net>
Subject: Re: [Amps] pi-net spreadsheet question
From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:49:21 -0400
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Suppressors wont hurt anything and can protect the amp. Unless you are 
running matched tubes one will have higher gain and just might decide to 
become unstable.

Carl
KM1H



> Great information, very helpful! This is so much better than trying to 
> figure this out
> while soldering taps on the coil, cutting tubing, etc.
>
> I am also wondering whether I will need parasitic suppressors at all. Many 
> 813 amplifiers
> I've seen (GE SB handbook, ARRL HB's, etc.) do not use them. I plan to 
> mount the sockets
> slightly below the chassis and bring bypass leads to the top of the 
> chassis with very
> short leads to the same ground point used for the tuning capacitor. Also I 
> am going to use
> parallel 0.01 and 0.001 uf for the bypasses. This should improve 
> stability.
>
> On 4/7/2010 5:30 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
>> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:03:33 -0700
>> From: Vic K2VCO<vic@rakefet.com>
>>
>>   pi-net spreadsheet question
>>
>> I'm using the GM3SEK pi-net design 
>> spreadsheet<http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/>. It
>> requires that you enter the inductance and resistance used in the 
>> parasitic suppressor.
>> What I'm wondering is how to do this for two tubes in parallel, where 
>> there are two
>> suppressors.
>>
>> Do you enter the value of one coil and resistor, or do you treat it as 
>> though these
>> components are in parallel?
>>
>> ##  excellent question.. and I have been  using his pi sheet  for yrs 
>> now... but only
>> 1 x tube amps... or  2 x GS35bs... where no suppressor is used at all.
>>
>> ## I'd say to parallel  the values of the 2 x suppressors. If it's a GG 
>> amp, the grids
>> are in parallel at one end.   The plate block cap is where the 2 x 
>> suppressors  come
>> together at the other end.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This makes a big difference at 28 and 21 MHz.
>>
>> I am finding this exercise very interesting, playing with the value of 
>> "lead inductance".
>> I'm trying to add a small "l network" before the main pi network which 
>> will cancel out
>> some of the large amount of output capacity of a pair of 813's so they 
>> will be reasonably
>> efficient on 10 and 15 meters. The parasitic suppressors become part of 
>> this, too.
>>
>> ##  that  feature is the BEST part of the spread sheet !  Start  with 
>> just the paralleled
>> suppressors, NO lead uh.    The tune cap may end up neg value.. or very 
>> low.. like
>> just a few pf.  [say for a Q=14-18]    Take  what ever value it spits out 
>> for the main coil..
>> and then divide by 2.    EG:  spits  out  say .. '.8 uh'      .8/2 = .4uh 
>> Ok, then make the
>> lead uh  .4 uh.   Main coil value may well change.   Juggle the lead Uh 
>> value,  till BOTH the
>> lead uh  and main coil are identical.
>>
>> ##  Ok, now you can probably DEcrease the loaded Q.  This all depends on 
>> Min C u have
>> and whether a vac cap is used, etc.
>> The idea here is to obtain the lowest Q  you can, and still not have the 
>> tune cap totally
>> unmeshed.. and  keep the main coil  and 'lead uh'  the same value.
>>
>> ##  I call the result  a  ' L-PI'   and it  works  very well !  On my 
>> 160-15m [ no 10+12m]
>> 3CX-3000A7  amp,  sure, it would tune 15m.. with out the extra .66 uh 
>> b4 the  main
>> pi-net.. but loaded Q  was WAY too high for my liking.  Also, my 15 M 
>> position  is also
>> used on 17m.    So  loaded Q on 17M  is through the roof.    The 3x3 tube 
>> has 24 pf of
>> anode to grid C... and rises to 33 pf.. when  tube in the socket.  Min C 
>> of the vac cap is
>> 12 pf... so I have 45 pf.. with the vac cap unmeshed !
>>
>> ##  with  .66uh  b4 the pi -net.....  plate load Z  drops way down. Now I 
>> can get the loaded Q
>> on 15m  down to just 8....... which  rises  to  Q=12  when on 17M.
>>
>> ##  In this case.. a  .66 uh coil  was made  from 7 x turns  of  3/8"  od 
>> tubing... on a 1.5" ID.
>> The .66 uh coil  is  at right angles to main tank coil.   I THINK  the 
>> harmonic suppression  increases
>> having the  2 x coils at right angles.    Main tank coil was 3" OD.. also 
>> made of 3/8" OD tubing.
>>
>> ##  so the extra coil doesn't have to be the same diam as main coil.  In 
>> my case,  I wanted it
>> long and skinny, to  bridge  the gap  between Plate block cap assy.. and 
>> vac tune cap.
>>
>> ##  on another amp,  the  vac tune cap was tapped  one turn into the main 
>> coil.  In this case,  it's
>> all one  coil.  So both  coil  orientation schemes have been tried, and 
>> both  work very well.
>>
>> ##  On older desk  top amps, where loaded Q is sky high on 10M... adding 
>> a tiny bit of uh between
>> plate block cap and C1 cap does wonders.  The extra uh can also go 
>> anywhere between the anode
>> and  C1 cap.   Then, using the  stock value  10m tank coil... the loaded 
>> Q  drops like a rock, way less
>> circulating current, more eff, and  main tank coil and the poor  band 
>> switch  don't get cooked!   But the
>> extra L  coil has to be same OD  as main tank coil.. or bigger, if main 
>> 10m tank coil is marginal to start
>> with.
>>
>> ##  I designed a 6m  8877 tank coil  setup for a fellow 2 yrs ago.   It 
>> used a .5 uh coil... wound with
>> 1/2"  wide flat strap... and tapped  dead center in the middle of the 
>> coil.. with the tune cap. The strap
>> coil is wound like a suppressor.. with the advantage that there is  zip 
>> C  between  turns.. since they
>> look like  knife edges facing each other.     3/8"  wide  strap is the eq 
>> of  1/4"  tubing, since the
>> circumference of both is aprx the same. 1/2"  wide strap = .318" OD 
>> tubing, etc.   He ends  up
>> with .25uh on either  side of the tune cap.   This works  very well. 
>> Two  separate .25 uh  coils
>> can also be wound... and at right angles, or anything from in line to 90 
>> degs  between em.
>>
>> ##  That  extra L  coil  gets installed on all my amps, since  I 
>> discovered the spread sheet, 10-12
>> yrs ago.   b4 that.. the  maths  by hand was tedious.
>>
>> later....... Jim  VE7RF
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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