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Re: [Amps] HV lytic max V ratings..some notes

To: "Jim Thomson" <Jim.thom@telus.net>, <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] HV lytic max V ratings..some notes
From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:27:50 -0400
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>

> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:25:58 -0400
> From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
> Subject: Re: [Amps] HV lytic max V ratings..some notes
>
>
> The L4PS.. and L7PS  used  100 k , 2 watt carbons... and even they look
>> new after  30+ yrs.
>
> ** Dentron did the same. Alpha used a pair of 220K in parallel.
>
> ## Drake was using 100k 2 watt in the original L4PS.. back in 1963.


** That doesnt mean it was good engineering by 1963 standards

>
> ##  alpha used 1N4007's in their 374-A no tune.. pure junk. [diodes]


** Dont know of any failure issues. Later models went with the 1N5408 as the 
price difference came down to almost nil.
>
>
>
>>
>> I still say that going extreme in filter C is a waste of time in most off
>> the shelf amps. Ive yet to hear any audible ripple complaints about
>> 80-150uF  caps used in strings in the old days. Going from 200 to 330uf 
>> as I do with
>> SB-220 repairs makes only a very slight PEP improvement; the transformer
>> isn't capable of more and its the same with many price conscious amps.
>
> ###    I can hear the diff with ESSB.   I can also hear the diff on AM. 
> I'm not
> talking abt 120 hz ripple either.  The ESSB  audio sounds cleaner.. as 
> does
> AM audio.   I haven't tried FM..yet.


** Then you are in a very small group.


>>
>> ##  The SB-220 xfmr is only a 500 VA unit... which is fubar.  Big diff
>> between  a  500 va xfmr and a 3.5 kva xfmr.
>
>
> ** Im talking about commercial ham amps. Anyone can go oversize on HB with 
> a
> credit card.
>
>
> ### say what?    The alpha's all have a 3.5 kva CCS xfmr... and so does 
> the
> AL-182/1200/1500.    So does the ten tec centurion.


** Say what?? You better get your glasses on and read an old Dahl catalog.


>> ## putting 600uf caps in a AL-1500  does make an improvement.  You
>> can get em in 500 vdc too.  Pep out is up.   I'm convinced imd is
>> improved.
>
>
> ** As well it should go up. Its no different than the vintage requirement
> for a stiff L-C-L-C filter in a modulator PS plus with a stiff bleeder. 
> You
> barely see the HV meter move.
>
> ##  so what's wrong with big C filters then?  You can buy surplus  big 
> 2300uf +
> caps for the same price as new   330uf  to 560 uf vcaps.   An extra  free
> 100-200 w pep out and better imd, is nothing to sneeze at.


** Eimac didnt use ridiculous amounts of C to establish tube specs which are 
usually well above the crap SS rigs in use. I can understand 330-560uF which 
still may place a strenuous starting load on stock amps.

** There is a huge difference between hum from a  processed AM modulator and 
VOX SSB. As I keep trying to tell you show me a vintage amp that has SSB hum 
problems with what you consider undersize caps. That includes your precious 
Drakes.

I doubt if more than a tiny few on here gives a hoot about ESSB. Stock 
linears sound fine on AM as do Class C amps with a lot less filtering than 
the modulators, a single LC filter is sufficient.


>>
>> Now if you want to run strings of 2400-4700uF caps with your 253# Dahl
>> iron  on a 3x10 or whatever that is your business.
>>
>> ## I used  8 x 2500 uf caps on the L4PS.. and B+  doesn't budge on ssb.
>
>
> ** Serious overkill unless you can measure an improvement that is actually
> audible. Otherwise it is just bragging material.
>
> ##  the 2500 uf caps were dirt cheap, surplus.  I can A-B  between
> a stock 25 uf  L4B.. and a  2nd L4B.. with 312 uf filter in it.... big
> difference.   I run the 2x L4B's  nose to tail, tuned up on same freq.
> A rotary switch ensures  only one amp's key line is active at any one 
> time.
> Dunno what it is, but it cleans up the audio.
>
> ##  P-P voltage drops  from 210 V.... down to just 16.8 V  P-P


** I never saw a Drake with only 210V PP drop. The iron is only .8A CCS. 
Thats .4A after it is doubled which is half  PEP Ip.
What does it do key up-key down?


>
> ##  watching that array solutions wattmeter, last few led segments,
> dithering away, drove me nuts... same deal on the RF scope.  That
> was with a CXR.. and anything from 700-1300 w out.  [stock - 25 uf]
>
>
>
>
>>
>> ## The single  GS35B  6m  amp,..used the 46 lb  mag cap xfmr... and B+
>> dropped  800 vdc.  There was also a 6 vac drop in the 12 ga wire.   The 2 
>> x GS35B
>> 6m amp  uses 2 ga wire and a bigger xfmr... and a string of 3900 uf caps. 
>> V drop
>> is only 150 vdc  power output is quadruple.
>
> ** There is something seriously wrong with that 800V drop.
>
> ##  agreed.  An alpha also uses the same 12 ga wire...and minimal
> problems.  The 46 lb mag cap will  have to be tested  with the 2 ga wire,
> and only then, will we know if the mag cap is the problem.
>
>
>
>
> Im convinced that real filter rated oil caps give better regulation.
>
> ##  I have 4 x  47.6 uf  @  4500 vdc  Oil caps.. [ came from henry radio 
> yrs ago]
> made by CDE.  These are real deal TX caps.. not energy discharge junk.  I 
> can put
> them all in parallel 1-2-3-4 at a time.. or  series /parallel em for 23.8 
> uf  @ 9 kv
> and also 47.6 uf  @ 9 kv.    12" tall x 8"  wide  x 4"  deep..30 lbs, 
> welded steel cases.
> They don't hold a candle to the big electrolytics.  I can run the oil caps 
> by themselves,
> or parallel em with  high C lytics... or run just the high C lytics.   The 
> weight diff
> alone is massive.   120 lbs for 4 x oil caps [47.6uf @ 9 kv]   vs  17.5 
> lbs  for  125 uf
> @ 9 kv   for  20 x  2500uf  @ 450 vdc lytics.


** I still have the 51.5UF @ 10kv Sangamo on a bottom shelf for some future 
project. I believe it is over 150# but its been 20 years since I moved it. I 
couldnt store wimpylytics that long (-;

>
> ##  trying to compare 200 uf caps  with their 1 ohm ESR  VS  .017ohm ESR 
> modern caps
> is like apples and oranges.   They  were cheap , surplus, so I took 
> advantage of that,
> to run the various experiments.

** Meanwhile most of us are grounded in the real world and happy with using 
270(current Ameritron stock)-560uF during replacement time since they at 
least fit existing amps.

Carl
KM1H


>
> Jim   VE7RF
>
>
>
>
> Carl
> KM1H
>
>
>
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