Gary Schafer wrote:
> IM and cross modulation are the same thing. With the catv amps there are
> many signals operating at nearly the same level that mix with each other to
> produce new products, some of which fall on the frequency of existing
> signals. The only way for IM products or cross modulation products to appear
> is by multiplication.
>
> The levels of the IM or cross modulation products increase in strength, with
> cascaded amplifiers because those product levels add together from one
> amplifier to the next in a linear fashion. Each amplifier produces its own
> IM products that fall on the same frequency as those produced by the
> previous amplifier.
I believe it's rare for any amp to have the output either in phase of 180
degrees out of phase with the input. BUT IIRC it's not all that complicated to
set the phase to what every you desire in the design.
If it's true that each amp generates identical IM products in amplitude
and frequency then it'd seem to be a relatively simple matter to set
the output phase 180 degrees from the input and end up with a net zero
IM for each even number of amps while each odd number would have only
those IM products from that amplifier, but I don't think it's quite that
straight forward or simple. Then again I was wrong one other time.
73
Roger (K8RI)
> Since the IM products generated by the second amplifier
> fall on the same frequency as those IM products being amplified by the
> second amplifier, they add together if they are in phase to produce higher
> levels of IM.
>
> 73
> Gary K4FMX
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com]
>> On Behalf Of Alex Eban
>> Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 2:43 AM
>> To: 'AMPS'
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] A tale of two IMs What happens?
>>
>> Not quite right:
>> Intermodulation products are extraneous signals generated by mixing two
>> or
>> more signals among themselves: they appear at very definite frequencies
>> in
>> the spectrum and are perfectly correlated with the signals that
>> participated
>> in their generation.
>> Cross modulation on the other hand is a mechanism, whereby the
>> information
>> present on one carrier appears on another carrier in the passband of the
>> amplifier.
>> Intermodulation products are multiplicative, not additive: if the first
>> stage amplifier generates IM products of, say -6o dBc , a second
>> identical
>> amplifier will generate its own IM products PLUS the Im of the first
>> stage
>> multiplied by the first stage gain SQUARED. That stems from the higher
>> IM
>> products of the second stage, driven by the higher sinal: the output of
>> the
>> first stage.
>>
>> Alex 4Z5KS
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Dr. David Kirkby
>> Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:53 AM
>> To: 'AMPS'
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] A tale of two IMs What happens?
>>
>> Gary Schafer wrote:
>>
>>> I worked in the cable TV industry for a short time a long while ago. I
>>> dug out my old CATV handbook and they give a pretty good explanation
>>> on intermod although they call it "cross modulation". I quickly looked
>>> over the part on IM and this is what I came away with:
>>>
>>> They say that the easiest way to look at it is to use percentages of
>>> distortion rather than db. In other words if we have two cascaded amps
>>> of the same type and they each have .1% IM products then the result
>>> out of the second amp will be .2%. Adding a 3rd amp of the same type
>>> also with .1% IM would yield a total of .3% IM out of the 3rd amp.
>>> So it seems that the IM products directly add together.
>>> They go on to say that with 2 amplifiers that gives an increase of 3
>>> db in total IM over a single amp.
>>>
>>> Now the amps in this case were tube amps of the "distributed" type,
>>> which makes them very broad band and they hold their phase shift
>>> constant. They refer to them as "well behaved" amplifiers.
>>>
>>> With "not so well behaved" amplifiers the total IM output is a
>>> different story. They show a typical dip in IM products in the mid to
>>> 3/4 output range. So IM products are higher at around 1/3 power, dip
>>> down at around 3/4 power and are highest at full output.
>>> I suspect that most of that would come from phase shifts in the amps
>>> being "not well behaved amplifiers".
>>>
>>> The not so well behaved amplifier scenario is probably similar to
>>> amateur exciter/amp setups. In a post I made on this a few days ago I
>>> mentioned that in most amplifiers there is a dip in the IM products
>>> mid way in 3rd order and a dip in 5th order at a higher level and then
>>> the IM products increasing again at full output.
>>> According to Orr these IM products can be pretty closely predicted
>>> mathematically from the tube curves.
>>>
>>> I think that Collins was trying to reduce the total IM products from
>>> the
>>> 30S1/KWM2 system when they recommended a specific length interconnect
>>> cable for the RF input to the amp. They make mention of the concern
>>> for the phase of the signal at the plate of the driver and the phase
>>> of the signal at the plate of the amp. I am guessing that the attempt
>>> was to have some amount of cancellation of the total IM products by
>>>
>> this.
>>
>>> 73
>>> Gary K4FMX
>>>
>> That's interesting. At first I thought this seemed silly, but then I
>> thought
>> about it, and I believe it may be semi-true in the case of CATV, but not
>> true at all in the case of amateur radio.
>>
>> In the case of amateur radio the purpose of the amplifier is to produce
>> a
>> bigger signal, rather than simply overcome the losses in the cables. For
>> CATV purposes, the amplifiers many not added to produce a bigger signal,
>> but
>> just to overcome losses. That is a VERY different case.
>>
>> If you have to get a signal over a very long distance using cables, then
>> the
>> losses of the cables obviously become significant, and you might need to
>> have many amplifiers in series. So the source is connected to the load
>> like
>> this:
>>
>> source -> CL -> A -> CL -> A -> CL -> A -> CL -> A -> load
>>
>> where:
>> CL = 20 dB of cable loss
>> A = 20 dB gain amplifier
>>
>> In the above case, the 80 dB dB gain just overcomes the 80 dB cable
>> loss. So
>> the main signal at the load is just at the power same level as the main
>> signal at the source. In this case, I can see how the IM level would
>> deteriorate rapidly.
>> At each amplifier, the level of distortion increases, but the level of
>> the
>> main signal is kept the same.
>>
>> In the case of an amateur radio power amp, the distortion gets bigger,
>> but
>> so too does the signal. Since the IMD is given as a ratio, it stay much
>> more
>> constant.
>>
>> So I don't believe this 3 dB applies in the context of the amateur radio
>> amplifier stuck on the end of a rig to get a bigger signal. But I do
>> believe
>> it could (approximately at least) apply in the case of multiple
>> amplifiers
>> in series which just have enough gain to overcome the losses.
>>
>> Dave, G8WRB
>>
>>
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