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Re: [Amps] Filter Capacitors

To: TexasRF@aol.com, manfred@ludens.cl, amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Filter Capacitors
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:04:37 -0400 (EDT)
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
One correction to the charging time: the charge time constant is only 2.4  
millisecond and the part about 3 time constants is in error.
 
The time constant of 2.4 ms is why a transformer of greater than 3050 volts 
 peak is needed. And also why the regulation is less than perfect. In the  
example, a better transformer is needed to reduce the R and charging time  
constant.
 
73,
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/13/2012 2:52:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
TexasRF@aol.com writes:

Hi  Manfred, I totally agree with the Farad definition but we were   
discussing ripple voltage and that is related not only to the Farad but  
time  
constants as well.

The charging time constant resistance  includes transformer secondary and  
primary resistance (as reflected  into the secondary) and house wiring. The 
 
discharging time constant  is determined by the plate load resistance plus 
any 
bleeder  current.

One time constant is the interval for the voltage charge to  65% of the 
peak 
value or discharge from the peak value. In the stated case  of 3050v peak, 
the  voltage change would be 3050 X .65 = 1982.5  v.

The charging time constant will be quite short since R is hopefully  small. 
 
A typical plate transformer might have a total of 30 ohms  secondary plus 
stepped  up primary resistance. With an 80 uFd filter,  the 65% charge time 
would be 2.4  milliseconds. Since there are  almost 3 such time constants 
between the 8.3  millisecond charge  cycles, the filter charge reaches 
about 96% of 
the peak  charging  voltage.

The discharge time constant is plate load resistance plus  bleeder current  
times the filter Farads. For 3000v at 1A plate  current and 3 mA bleeder 
current,  the total resistance os 3000 /  1.003 = 2991 ohms. The time 
constant 
then is 2991  X 80 e-6 = .239  seconds. The voltage decay of the charged 
filter 
C then is  1982.5 v  in 239 milliseconds. in our 8.3 millisecond charge 
cycle the voltage   drop would be 8.3 / 239 X 1982.5 = 68.8 volts.

Therefore the peak to  peak ripple is also 68.8 volts.

Note there is charging and discharging  current for the filter C but it not 
 
come into the math  above.

I will leave it to others to comment on 68.8 volts ripple being  ok or not  
ok. It is only about 2.25% of the plate voltage so it  seems like it would 
be 
adequate.

I have been going over the same  calculations for a 10GHz twt amplifier  
power supply. In that case,  the tube displays .008 dB power change per 
volt on  
the cathode. To  keep the carrier hum low enough, I was shooting hum at the 
-20  dB  level which is 1% of the power. So, the hum would be -.0436 dB /  
.008  dB = 5.4 volts ripple. 

That is going to require lots of  microfarads or a really good electronic  
filter or  both.

73,
Gerald K5GW





In a message dated  4/13/2012 1:38:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
manfred@ludens.cl  writes:

Gerald,

> I have not seen the 1v, 1A, 1 second,  1  microfarad theory before. 

It's not a theory. It's the very  definition  of the unit "farad"!

But it's "farad", not  "microfarad"! A capacitor of  one microfarad 
instead would gain one  volt in one second if charged by one  microampere. 
Or if charged by  one ampere, it would gain one volt in every  microsecond.
If you get  confused by where to add "micro" and where not,  better use 
the base  units only, without any prefix, even if then a typical  Pi tank  
tuning capacitor might end up having a capacitance of 0.0000000002   farad.

If you don't believe me about the definition, look it up   here

http://searchcio-midmarket.techtarget.com/definition/farad

or   here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farad

or google for  additional  sources!

> I will  
> need to look into  that as I was  under the impression that voltage drop 
was 
>  based  on time  constants and they are related to 65% voltage charge  or 
>  discharge.

Those time constants happen when you  charge a capacitor  through a 
resistor, resulting in a non-constant  charging current. In many  
situations it's good to use those time  constants, for example when you  
use a 555 timer chip. But in a power  supply filter calculation it's more  
practical to consider the load  current as being constant, and thus apply  
the definition of the  unit.

In other cases, like RF work, you would  typically use  neither the linear 
volt ampere second farad relationship,  nor the RC  time constant, but 
instead you would use the LC resonant  frequency,  Q factor, and the 
reactance of your capacitor at a given   frequency.

For a power supply filter, a calculation using the  reactance  of the 
filter capacitor isn't really applicable, because  the waveform  delivered 
by the rectifier contains an infinite series  of harmonics, and  so a 
given capacitor has an infinite number of  different reactances to  
consider!

So we have to use the most  suitable method for each  particular  situation.

Manfred.

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