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Re: [Amps] Source of Mica Caps?

To: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>, <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Source of Mica Caps?
From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 09:48:44 -0400
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>


-----Original Message----- From: Carl
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 11:26 AM
To: Jim Thomson ; amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Source of Mica Caps?

I have 2 TL-922's on the bench as I type. Both had a tube arc that opened a grid choke and prevented any further damage with their original 1989 Eimacs. Since those are among the troublesome date codes a replacement tube will get them back to their owners while directly grounding could have cost a lot of
money.

### whoa. Tube arc from anode to grid ?? A good 3-500Z will hi pot test to well
over 8 kv.   Why would it arc from anode to grid in the 1st place ?

** Whoa nothing. That is a typical gas arc path. Guess its time for you to ask Rich or Tom how amps work (-;


 If it
arcs from
anode to grid, the tube is probably toast. Put a 50 ohm, 50 watt wire wound in series with the B+ lead. Put a high speed HV fuse in series with the 50 ohm, 50 watt wire wound glitch resistor. Put a 2nd HV fast fuse between one leg of HV AC sec...and input to FWB. Put a rear panel 3agc fuse holder, with a super fast grid fuse. Wire grid fuse, so it is between chassis and negative terminal of grid meter....or grid shunt. Toss the 6 x grid caps and both chokes away. Bond the 6 grid pins to the chassis with wide cu strap.

** An almost total waste of time and money for the average ham. Replace the "VHF" choke in the TL-922 and SB-220 with a glitch resistor and go back to operating. The grid choke is the grid fuse as long it is sized properly.



## If tube arcs from anode to grid, the 50 ohm glitch resistor will LIMIT the fault current to a low value. 3000 v divided by 50 ohms = 60 A of fault current. The 60A of fault current will then blow open the fast HV fuse in under 2 msecs. That has been verified on the bench with test gear, scope etc. So LIMIT fault current, then INTERRUPT the fault current. This same scheme not only works on 3-500Z amps, it also works on any other GG tube like GS35B, 3x3 and 3x6 tubes etc.


** Plus all Ameritron and other brand direct grounded 3-500 amps which sustain lots of expensive damage when a tube lets loose.


## draw too much dc grid current, and 3agc grid fuse blows open. No path for dc grid current means the amp can't be driven! Power output of amp drops to zero watts. SWR between xcvr and input of GG amp rises to infinity....and xcvr shuts down asap due to high swr. If either HV fuse blows open, or the
dc grid fuse, simply replace and you are back in business.

I'll let amp owners decide which choice they want and hopefully not be
swayed by a lot of published nonsense from a tiny minority. If an amp
becomes unstable replace the parasitic suppressors with something resembling
the up to 40+ year originals and not voodoo nichrome crap. Learn how to
diagnose and fix a problem and not a symptom.

## The reason the CC resistors increase in value over time is cuz they are subjected to a ton of heat from the HOT anode ! The heat will travel down the lead...and cook the crap outa the 2 watt CC. Then you have the additional extra heat from the normal suppressor action, since most suppressors will run hot on 10m..and also 6m anyways. Using something more than 2 watts will allow some leeway and headroom in the design of the 10 or 6m
suppressor.



Ive been converting amps to 6M since the mid 60's and have gone thru several
suppressor designs; if an old one failed then replace the resistor.
Grounding the grids "may" work and they "may" also take off with new tubes; my experience is it "will" happen at times especially with Chinese tubes. I
leaned to the side of stability and consider suppressor resistors as
consumables just as spark plugs and modern resistors last longer just as do
ignition system components.

## what various 6m suppressor designs are you talking about now....or is this
just more trade secret stuff ?


** Yup. Ive detailed some over the years and got tired of other for profit types copying them.


Stop constantly whining about the SB-220 choke voltage drop. It affects
nothing and if it bothers you that much put an electrolytic across the
zener.

## 150 ma of grid current ..per tube is a lot. 300 ma in total on my L4B amps. Your SB-220 uses grid chokes that have a 25 ohm DC resistance. .150 x 25 ohms = 3.75 vdc of V drop across each grid choke. You only have a 5 volt zener in there for bias to begin with. On peaks, you will now have 5 + 3.75 = 8.75V of bias on each tube. I call that lousy bias regulation. BTW, putting a lytic across the 5 V zener will buy you nothing. The zemer is already regulated!

** Try to understand that the extra 3.75V is only at peaks which acts as an AGC control. The zener is far from an ideal regulator as the undersized 10W versions drift with heat. Amp Supply went with 50W.


## You claim the V drop across the 25 ohm resistor provides NFB. And that bonding the grids to the chassis will reduce the NFB to zero, and simultaneously degrade IMD....and also increase gain. Heath claims the NFB comes about by the V divider action from the tubes grid to cathode C + grid caps. Which is it ??

** They dragged that in total from Collins as used in the 30L1 without understanding why. Drake copied it also in the L-4/4B. While it provided some level of RF NFB it was far from consistent across the bands. If you want to properly ground the grids for RF use a total of .02uF or so split at the 3 grid pins and use a resistor for the NFB and fuse; use whatever resistor value floats your boat. Its more work than many want to go thru.


## the drake amps use grid chokes that have LESS than 1 ohm DC resistance. I measured .91 ohm on 8 grid chokes from 4 different drake L4B amps. .150 x .91 = .1365 vdc V drop across each drake grid choke. Drake amps run ZERO bias, so the bias will fluctuate between zero and a max of .1365 V. These days, I bond the grids to chassis, but use regulated bias. Like 3-10 x 6A10 diodes, switchable in 3 steps using a DPDT-center off toggle on rear apron. Plus a huge value lytic across the entire string. Bias doesn't budge on ssb/cw. I used calibrated watt meters on both the input and output of each amp....and did a before and after grid grounding with wide cu strap test. 20 - 25 watt reduction in drive power when the grids are directly bonded to the chassis ! So much for the 25 ohm dc resistance of the heath grid chokes providing NFB, they don't. The heath
chokes + grid caps  don't improve linearity either.


** All that shows is that the caps are doing almost all the work at zero bias and the chokes are along for the ride. If the caps are actually consistent across the bands then so would be the drive reduction. The Drake engineer who designed that amp said he measured a 3dB IMD improvement but the band wasnt specified.

Ive measured 2-3dB on a stock SB-220 but not sure of the band, likely 20M. On 6M it was the same within measurement error and 3dB is likely the most that can be squeezed out at that plate voltage. I did not measure in the CW position that I can remember anyway.



## with a 20-25 watt redux in drive requirements, the XCVR will run a lot cleaner, IMD wise. ARRL extended lab results for the kenwood 870, the xcvr was tested at 50-85-100 watt pep out for the 2 tone imd test..on 20M. The imd @ 100w pep out was lousy, -30 db pep. it really cleans up when run at 85 w out....and really clean at 50 w out. With a 20-25 w redux in drive requirements, the same 870 would be operating at 75-80 w pep out.....with lower imd. Lower xcvr imd means lower imd from the kw linear amp that is being driven by the 870. GIGO concept.


** On the TS-940 around 75-80W is the sweet spot and is why my LK-500ZC only runs 1200W. OTOH how many hams ever reduce power and also run the compressor? Net result is zero to a lot more IMD.

** Just listen to any AL-80A, they splatter wide at 100W and the owners care less.

Carl
KM1H

Jim   VE7RF




Carl
KM1H



----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
To: <amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 12:42 PM
Subject: [Amps] Source of Mica Caps?


Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2013 19:58:58 -0400
From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
To: "Jim W7RY" <w7ry@centurytel.net>, "Randall K Martin"
<rkmassoc@comcast.net>, <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Source of Mica Caps?


I still dont understand the claim made by a few that increasing gain and
power output increases stability when hard grounding the grids.

I would take various web sites with a grain of salt and try to separate the
good from bad.

The 115pf caps were chosen by Heath at the end of the SB-220 run and a
bulletin suggested changing them. The SB-221 and HL-2200 use the 115pf but Ive replaced with whatever 110 and 120pf I come across in bulk. Ive yet to
have instability in a well built and updated SB-220, even on 6M, with the
Heath design.

Carl
KM1H

## TL-922 are rock solid when oem suppressors used and grids directly grounded, and chokes tossed. Ditto with drake L4B..and just about every other amp that floats the grids with caps... including SB-220.

## Sb-220 with grids directly grounded to chassis works superb on 6m. I have seen KM1H SB-220 6m conversions, where the grids were grounded to chassis...after the fact by the owner..works great.

## The 25 ohm DC resistance of the chokes used in the SB-220 isnt doing you any good..just more unwanted V drop. The DC resistance of the chokes used in the Drake L4B is less than 1 ohm.
I still tossed the chokes and caps  in all 4 of my L4B amps.

Jim   VE7RF

.

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