< That has yet to be determined Ed. Tom Simpson (SE engineer) believes the RFI
could be caused by the solar panels themselves which he said has happened in
the past.>
If that were the case, and I and a number of EMC engineers here are skeptical,
the noise would almost certainly just be a broadband hiss.
And removing all of the panels at once would stop the entire system from
generating noise, just like covering them up would do, and the optimizers would
not be seeing anything resembling normal, so it is hard to even guess what they
would do, although shutting down completely would be a good failsafe design..
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony <73guddx@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 4:24 PM
To: Hare, Ed W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org>; Rfi List <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Question Regarding Variations In Solar Panel RFI?
Ed:
> This is no different from the noise change that occurs when the sun goes
> down, so all it really does is demonstrate that the noise is coming from some
> part of the system.
That's correct. The reason my neighbor and I had to resort to covering the
panels was to show that the system was still generating RFI after the chokes
were applied to the optimizers. Solar Edge insisted that the chokes had
resolved this issue and we proved otherwise.
The only way to completely shut down the system during the day is to cover the
panels.
> By the description here, the first major noise source, the optimizers, seems
> to have been corrected.
That has yet to be determined Ed. Tom Simpson (SE engineer) believes the RFI
could be caused by the solar panels themselves which he said has happened in
the past.
This idea of guessing or theorizing what component is causing the noise could
have been resolved a long time ago if Solar Edge would agree to disconnect the
ALL panels from the system and probe each component to see which one is causing
the RFI.
I've been at the site each time SE has worked on the system and they've NEVER
removed all the panels at once. This would, at the very least show that there's
a problem with the panels and or optimizers.
I'm hoping that yourself or perhaps Paul can convince Tom Simpson to do so when
he visits the site. If not, we're just going around in circles.
Tony -K2MO
On 9/28/2020 3:13 PM, Hare, Ed W1RFI wrote:
> <We were able to isolate the noise from the solar panels and associated
> electronics by covering the panels and seeing it disappear.>
>
> This is no different from the noise change that occurs when the sun goes
> down, so all it really does is demonstrate that the noise is coming from some
> part of the system.
>
> By the description here, the first major noise source, the optimizers, seems
> to have been corrected. The inverter noise appears to still be present. This
> is an area that Paul and Solar Edge are investigating and working on, so
> let's give that a bit of time to develop. Paul owns the system, and he is
> qualified to work on it, so when they come up with possible ideas, he is able
> to do the work without having to coordinate with a neighbor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> On Behalf Of
> Tony
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 2:55 PM
> To: Cianciolo, Paul, W1VLF <pcianciolo@arrl.org>; Rfi List
> <rfi@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [RFI] Question Regarding Variations In Solar Panel RFI?
>
> Paul:
>
> The RFI on the home AC lines is identical to the RFI generated by the Solar
> Edge system. I can't tell you if it's induced or directly injected onto the
> A/C lines but it's there.
>
> More importantly, the RFI on the AC lines disappears when the system shuts
> down either by covering the solar panels with tarps or when the system
> automatically shuts down at night.
>
> Here's what we know for certain after months of testing and observation:
>
> 1. The inverter and optimizers produce a distinct noise of their own.
> 2. The noise disappeared completely when we covered the solar panels with
> tarps.
> 3. The noise reappears when we removed the tarps.
> 4. The noise appears at sunrise and disappears at sundown.
> 5. We were able to isolate the noise from the inverter by shutting it off and
> seeing the spikes disappear.
> 6. We were able to isolate the noise from the solar panels and associated
> electronics by covering the panels and seeing it disappear.
>
> Solar Edge recently replaced the inverter on the 18th of August and I
> recorded the event from start to finish. What it showed was that the inverter
> spikes disappeared while the inverter was removed from the system and then
> re-appeared once the new inverter was installed and activated.
>
> I'll post the link to the time lapse video I recorded ASAP.
>
> Good to hear from you Paul. Let me know if you need further information.
>
> Tony -K2MO
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/28/2020 10:23 AM, Cianciolo, Paul, W1VLF wrote:
>> Tony,
>>
>> Regarding your statement below:
>>
>> "We found high levels of RFI on the A/C lines throughout my neighbor's home
>> and that's likely the case with all Solar Edge installations
>> .............since there are no chokes between the mains and inverter."
>>
>> It is the last part that I take issue with. See the attached photo.
>> This is the EMI filter on the SE inverter on my house. Also see the
>> attached PDF, look under page 3 COMPLIANCES you will find part 15B
>> They could not legally connect these to a residential AC line if it
>> were not part 15b compliant. In addition I have a Corcom 25fc10
>> installed at my home. See the data sheet and response curves here.
>> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1430489.pdf
>> The filter makes a barely detectable change in the any received RFI I have
>> from the SE system.
>>
>> What needs to happen here is to determine, the source of the RFI first, not
>> the radiating elements. In the past you have mentioned that even with the
>> inverter off, not producing power, you still had the interference. In fact
>> you had covered the panels and the RFI went away.
>>
>> With that in mind here are a couple of sources, or generators, and not he
>> radiating element that I cab confirm in my testing.
>>
>> 1) The inverter itself. The original inverters SE used had an
>> internal switching frequency of roughly 18 KHz and thus harmonics
>> were found every 18 KHz
>> 2) The HD wave inverters operate at roughly 50 KHz and thus you can see
>> harmonic energy at 50 KHZ intervals Other manufacturers that I have worked
>> with use 39 KHZ .
>> It is difficult to switch, in my case 6.5 Kilowatts of power in a box 12" x
>> 12" by 8"
>> 3) The original optimizers as we all know had a serious 200 KHz problem. In
>> the next version, as I have in my installation that problem has been
>> rectified.
>> 4) This leaves the fact that the current optimizers, the SP350? I believe?
>> may still generate some noise in the non-power generating state. I am
>> pretty sure you sent me a video or photo comparison that Randy, sorry I
>> forget his call at the moment, but he did bench test on a non-power
>> generating optimizer.
>>
>> In that video, you showed the spectral waveforms looking similar I believe?
>>
>> I don't think the inverter is the cause of your issues at that this point.
>> The exact radiation mechanism of the RFI from your neighbors SE system is
>> still unknown.
>> I also do not see the noise issue you have, as you previously described at
>> my house. The again I only have a 275' open wire fed dipole that I tune on
>> all HF bands 200 feet away from house. I don not have a multielement beam
>> design for 20 meters.
>>
>> To me it would make the most sense to concentrate on the specific device
>> generating your noise based on the RF signature.
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Paul Cianciolo, W1VLF
>> ARRL EMC Engineer
>>
>> ARRL - The national association for Amateur RadioT
>> 225 Main Street, Newington, CT 06111-1400 USA
>> Telephone: (860) 594-0392
>> FAX: (860) 594-0259
>> Email: w1vlf@arrl.org
>> World Wide Web: www.arrl.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RFI <rfi-bounces+pcianciolo=arrl.org@contesting.com> On Behalf
>> Of Tony
>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 6:23 PM
>> To: Rfi List <rfi@contesting.com>
>> Subject: [RFI] Question Regarding Variations In Solar Panel RFI?
>>
>> All:
>>
>> The reports I've read suggest that the strength of interference caused by
>> solar panel systems can vary from one installation to the next EVEN when the
>> distance to the source is similar. That variation could be attributed to
>> radiating conductors tied to the system such as the house wiring.
>>
>> We found high levels of RFI on the A/C lines throughout my neighbors home
>> and that's likely the case with all Solar Edge installations since there are
>> no chokes between the mains and inverter.
>>
>> Given those facts, would a large home with long runs of un-shielded Romex
>> produce higher levels of interference compared to a smaller home with
>> shorter runs? Or does the resonance of the wiring play more of a role than
>> length and number of runs?
>>
>> It's an oversimplification, but it seems logical to consider what's
>> connected to system and not just the system itself.
>>
>> Tony -K2MO
>>
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>
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