I really don't know what you lot are complaining about.
If you don't like your radio, transceiver or receiver, you can send the lot
to me here in VK and I'll play with them.
Keep the SDR's just the Real radios please.
73, John de VK2XGJ
Guns don't kill people
Driver's on mobile phones do!
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry N1EU
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 11:53 AM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Radio Complexity was Re: Dirty Transmitters - Flex
andYaesu
The K3 would be a whole different radio if it had a big screen and could
display 18 lines of different menu entries at one time like the Orion.
Viewing only one menu entry at a time when there's 104 (!!!) different
config menu entries, scrolling/searching for one who knows where, is a
nightmare on the K3. That being said, the K3s is still an AMAZING radio.
73, Barry N1EU
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 12:01 AM, Al Gulseth <wb5jnc@centurytel.net> wrote:
Rick,
I'm with you on the "too many features." While I haven't owned or used a
K3,
one of the things I never cared for about the K2 was the "one way" filter
selection: it cycled through the filters wide to narrow, and to go to a
wider
filter required going all the way back around. On top of that, if the
optional audio filter was installed, using it required a press and hold of
the xtal filter button as a secondary function. Having separate
bi-directional controls (as in the Corsair and others) spoiled me HI HI!!
73, Al
On Thu December 10 2015 3:26:27 pm rick@dj0ip.de wrote:
> Darrell,
>
> I'm in between you and Jim.
>
> You identified the problem yourself.
> The newer generation have too many features to give them all a knob or
> button, and there isn't enough space on the front panel to label a
> switch
> with all the features.
>
> At the same time, THE biggest thing I disliked about the K3 was that I
> could not operate it without a manual.
> In fact at first I used both the manual and the tiny Quick Guide (those
$10
> specials). Sometimes the manual explained stuff better, sometimes the
> guide was better.
>
> Let's backtrack; prior to purchasing the K3, I was one of the operators
> with Tim (K3LR) at a field day site.
> During the grave yard shift where most people were home in bed, I was
using
> a K3 on 40m CW.
> The OP before me had turned the CW decoder on, so that the text of
> everything sent or received was shown on the screen. It was shown over
the
> space where the RIT Offset normally would have been displayed.
>
> I was unable to turn the damn decoder off. Therefore I was unable to
> see
> my RIT offset.
> The owner of the K3 was not on site and there was no manual.
> That really ruined my first encounter with a K3.
> But it was typical of what's wrong with K3 ergonomics.
> "It's not intuitive."
>
> Fast forward. I bought the K3 anyway, was happy with it for a few
months,
> then I got a call from the president of Ten-Tec informing me he had just
> sent me an Eagle. "What's an Eagle", I asked. He said "your radio."
> Basically it was what I had told him I wanted about 4 years earlier but
> instead he built the O7. So this Eagle showed up just in time for CQWW
> contest.
>
> I had already taken down my beam in preparation for moving back to
Germany,
> so I had no shot at a good contest score. A great reason to use the
> contest to compare the K3 to an Eagle.
>
> Not knowing of the audio problem, I connected identical external loud
> speakers to both rigs and compared.
> World of difference. The Eagle won hands down. To be sure, I swapped
the
> two speakers. No change.
>
> Also, at no time could I say that I heard a signal better on the one or
the
> other.
>
> BUT, before the Eagle arrived, I read the manual once.
> I never touched it again. Everything was intuitive.
>
> THAT was the deciding point, not the audio problem.
>
> Elecraft needs improvement on the naming and handling of its menus.
>
> I'm sure if you have only one radio, a K3, and you use it all the time,
> then this becomes a moot point.
> But it is a huge part of the learning curve.
>
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Darrell
> Bellerive VE7IU
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:42 PM
> To: k9yc@arrl.net; Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> Subject: [TenTec] Radio Complexity was Re: Dirty Transmitters - Flex and
> Yaesu
>
> I agree Jim, these issues are very personal and what one operator finds
> intuitive, another may not. That is why we have many choices when it
comes
> to radios.
>
> Personally I like the boat anchor ergonomics; Big widely spaced single
> function controls.
>
> Let's take one example: mode selection.
>
> The K3 uses a rocking pushbutton to toggle up or down through its basic
> modes. One also holds the down side of the mode button (ALT function) to
> select alternate modes. Once the basic mode of DATA is selected, yet
> another key is held down (AFX) to set the data mode (DATA MD) with the
> rotation of the VFO B knob.
>
> Want synchronous AM mode? Push the mode button up or down until AM is
> displayed then press and hold the ALT button. One has to memorize this
> and/or have a manual or cheat sheet available.
>
> This is what I consider complexity. The radio button labels do not
indicate
> how to select synchronous AM mode. I either have to memorize it or look
it
> up. In fact, if I never read the manual, I would not even know the K3(S)
> has a synchronous AM mode.
>
> Boat anchor ergonomics would have a muti-position rotary switch with
> each
> mode clearly labelled. Rotate the switch to the desired mode and your
done.
>
> Now I know that the K3(S) can do more than any boat anchor could ever
dream
> of, and that a rotary switch for modes on a modern radio is not
practical,
> but all that capability comes at a price, complexity.
>
> So with a K3(S) to use functions that are not labeled I have to either:
> memorize,
> consult the manual,
> make a cheat sheet, or
> decide I never want to use that function and just forget it exists.
>
> Like all choices in purchasing it becomes a compromise. What is
> important
> to me, what can I live with, what can I not live without, etc.
>
> The Eagle on my desk is no exception. I knew from day one I would not
like
> its pushbutton system and I don't. I tolerate it because what I do like
> about that radio outweighs what I do not like. And I know me too - that
one
> day I will have pushed that FNC button one too many times, and the Eagle
> will go up for sale.
>
> And before someone calls me out. Yes, the Eagle has hidden functions
> too,
> just like the K3(S). Setting the noise reduction level is one example.
You
> have to hold the NR button after it is selected.
>
> Right now there are three radios I would own, the Eagle, the K3S, and
> the
> TS-590SG. My choice for the next while anyways is the Eagle. Down the
road,
> quite likely the K3S even with its complexity. Unless of course Ten-Tec,
> Elecraft, or maybe Heathkit makes something I like even more.
>
> 73, Darrell VE7IU
>
> On 15-12-10 10:24 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > On Thu,12/10/2015 8:34 AM, Darrell Bellerive VE7IU wrote:
> >> but I did not care for the audio, the complexity, or the ergonomics.
> >
> > These issues are very personal, and depend a lot on what we're used to
> > and what we've experienced.
> >
> > I'm retired from a career in pro audio, and am a Fellow of the Audio
> > Engineering Society. Except for casual monitoring while I'm doing
> > other stuff in the shack, I use headphones for 99.9% of my operation.
> > My headphones of choice are Sony MDR7506 and Yamaha CM500. Both
> > provide excellent communications quality RX audio. I don't use ham RX
> > to listen to broadcast audio -- I have other radios for that purpose.
> >
> > As to user interface -- Elecraft has done a great job of learning what
> > controls most hams need on a daily basis and which can be on menus.
> > Everything that I've ever needed to adjust while operating is either a
> > button or a knob on the front panel, or can be assigned to either of
> > two "soft" buttons on the front panel. In 8 years, I've found only one
> > function I wanted to assign -- toggling the speaker on and off with my
> > Yamaha CM500 plugged into the rear panel.
> >
> > Indeed, the "complexity" is nothing more than giving the user more
> > control of how the radio works than do most other radios. This control
> > is on menus, AND menus are only needed when you want to change how the
> > radio works. The K3 and K3S work just fine with no adjustments to any
> > of those menus to work SSB or CW with a mic and paddle plugged into
> > the front panel! Exception -- VOX Gain and Anti-VOX are on a top-level
> > menu. If you want to plug your CM500 (or other boom mic headset) into
> > the rear panel, you'll need to go to a menu to select rear panel mic
> > and hit a button (2 on the keypad) to turn on bias. Again, that's a
> > one-time setting.
> >
> > More complexity -- the K3 and K3S have TX modes optimized for digital
> > modes and for RTTY. You need to select the right method for the way
> > you want to TX these modes. These are, for most of us, one-time
> > settings. Less complexity -- both K3 and K3S have a Line Input to feed
> > digital (or SSB messages) from a computer, so you don't need adapters
> > to the mic input.
> >
> > But all the controls you need while operating are on the front panel
> > -- IF bandwidth and shift, Mic Gain, CW speed, Audio Compression,
> > Power out, RF gain, AF Gain, RIT/XIT, preamp on/off, Atten on/off,
> > Ant1/Ant2 toggle, Tune button, Ant Auto Tune, Mode, Band, Spot, Notch,
> > NB, NR, are all on the front panel. Want to go into Split Mode? Hit
> > A>B twice in succession to copy A VFO settings to B VFO, then push and
> > hold A>B to go into split, then tune the B VFO where you want to TX.
> >
> > Hope this helps to correct some misconceptions.
> >
> > 73, Jim K9YC
> > _______________________________________________
> > TenTec mailing list
> > TenTec@contesting.com
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> >
> >
> > --
> > Darrell Bellerive
> > VE7IU
>
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