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Re: [TowerTalk] wire antenna question

To: TexasRF@aol.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] wire antenna question
From: Blair S Balden <blair.balden@wmich.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:05:46 -0500
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Hi Gerald,
I guess this is something I'm not clear on.  By my calculations, an antenna 
having an impedance of 40+j10 or 40-j10 would have 41.23 ohms.
If SWR is the ratio of the two impedances (coax and load), then 50 ohms / 41.23 
ohms would give an SWR of 1.21.  It would take 30 ohms of reactance combined 
with 40 ohms of resistance (40+j30 or 40-j30) to give 50 ohms.  So, it would 
seem to me that the 40-ohms-at-resonance antenna would need to have 30 ohms of 
reactance combined with it in order to achieve an SWR of 1.
At least, that is what I would expect.  Am I missing something in my thinking?

Thanks,
Blair, NP2F 


 
----- Original Message -----
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008 12:33 pm
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] wire antenna question

> Blair, that is not quite right. Using a 50 ohm swr indicator, the 
> lowest  swr 
> is shown when the reactance is zero.
> 
> Using a transmission line program, 40 ohm load 40+j0; swr=1.25.  
> 40+j10=1.37; 
> 40-j10=1.37.
> 
> So, when you tweak your dipole for the lowest vswr at a given 
> frequency,  you 
> are in essence resonating the antenna at that frequency.
> 
> 73,
> Gerald K5GW
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 11/13/2008 11:00:20 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
> 
> blair.balden@wmich.edu writes:
> 
> Thanks  to everyone who responded.  I feel much better about what 
> I've been  
> doing.  Terry, yours made such perfect sense, I thought I should 
> have  known 
> it already!  Because the dipole's resonant Z is usually higher 
> than  50 ohms, 
> getting minimum SWR would mean I'd cancelled out all the  
> reactance.  If the 
> resonant Z were less than 50 ohms, I could get a lower  SWR by 
> introducing a 
> reactive component.  But, I suppose it would be rare  to have a 
> dipole with a 
> resonant Z below 50 ohms.
> 
> Thanks again to  all,
> 73,
> Blair NP2F 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message  -----
> From: Terry Conboy <n6ry@arrl.net>
> Date: Sunday, November 9,  2008 10:54 pm
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] wire antenna question
> 
> > At  07:07 AM 2008-11-09, Blair S Balden NP2F wrote:
> > >When I put up  dipoles, whether they be "straight" or inverted 
> > >V's,  I've  always started out with the wire a little longer 
> than 
> > the 
> >  >formula length of 468/f.  Then I've trimmed for as close to a 
> 1:1  
> > >match as I can get to my 50-ohm coax, as indicated by my SWR  
> > >meter.  I can usually get a 1:1 SWR.
> > >
> >  >These antennas usually work very well, but I realize that a 
> >  resonant 
> > >dipole will not have exactly 50 ohms resistance.   So, I must 
> be 
> > >cutting these antenna somewhat off resonance.   I also realize 
> > that a 
> > >mismatch at the antenna (SWR of  greater than 1) results in loss.
> > >
> > >What I'm not sure  about is whether it would be better to get 
> the 
> > >antenna resonant  at the desired frequency and accept the 
> > mismatch, 
> > >or  whether I should continue to go for the best SWR 
> (minimizing 
> >  >losses due to the mismatch).
> > >
> > >BTW, my rig does not  have an internal antenna tuner, and I am 
> > >currently without an  external tuner for it.  So, I'm running 
> it 
> > >without a tuner  (if this matters).  Also, I have not been 
> using 
> > any 
> >  >kind of matching device at the feedpoint, just direct 
> connection 
> >  >from the coax connectors to the wires.
> > >
> > >If someone  on here can give me some insight as to whether I 
> > should 
> >  >try to go for resonance instead of low SWR, please respond.  I 
> 
> > would 
> > >truly appreciate any help with the  question.
> > 
> > In your case, resonance and 1:1 SWR are exactly the  same 
> > thing.  Resonance just means that the antenna impedance is  
> purely 
> > resistive.  Resonance isn't necessarily the point of  highest 
> gain: 
> > many antennas actually have higher gain when they are  much 
> longer 
> > than the resonant length (e.g. double-extended  zepp).
> > 
> > Indeed, a thin-wire straight (nearly) half-wave dipole  in free 
> > space, 
> > or at certain heights, will have a resistive  component of the 
> feed 
> > impedance of about 72 ohms.  However, at  your mounting height 
> and 
> > with your surrounding conductors, the  resistive part of the 
> > antenna 
> > impedance is 50  ohms.   This is actually pretty common, as you 
> > have  
> > discovered.  (Because of the bending, V-shaped antennas  
> typically 
> > have a feed impedance under 72 ohms, even in free  space.)
> > 
> > Even if your antenna did have a feed impedance of 72  ohms at 
> > resonance, which would give a 1.44:1 SWR, you can only worsen  
> the 
> > SWR 
> > by changing the length of the wire, which mostly  just adds or 
> > subtracts reactance.
> > 
> > With a 50 ohm  line, the ONLY way you can ever get a 1:1 SWR is 
> if 
> > the 
> > load  Z is 50 +/- j0 ohms.  (A Smith Chart would never lie.)
> > 
> >  In your situation, there really isn't anything else you can do 
> > with  
> > trimming to get higher efficiency.  You already have  "nirvana". 
> 
> > Life 
> > is good.  Be happy.  As they  say in Seattle, "keep clam".
> > 
> > 73, Terry N6RY
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> >  
> > 
> > 
> >  _______________________________________________
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> > TowerTalk@contesting.com
> >  http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
> >  
> 
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