DICK: I totally agree with you. The problem was that we hardscaped our large
front lawn and there was no way Qe could reasonably flume the concrete into the
back yard to the first tower site without doing thousands of dollars of damage.
Besides, as you point out, the pumping companies charge an arm and a leg just
to pump and flume a 200 foot distance.
When we relocated the tower to the back of the house on the other, we got
a "mini" truck to back down the driveway. We could flume the concrete to
wheelbarrows 20 feet below the driveway turnaround and walk them over to the
tower hole. It worked.
Now that it's up and breaking lots of pileups and getting great DX, it's
all just a bad dream!
Dale. K4ROZ
Dale M. Schwartz & Asso., LLP
Attorneys at Law--Immigration &
Nationality Law
Suite 450 RiverEdge One
5500 Interstate N. Pkwy. NW
Atlanta, GA 30328
Tel: 770 951-1100
Fax: 770 951-1113
www.immlawfirm.com
PAST PRESIDENT: AMERICAN
IMMIGRATION LAWYERS ASS'N
ADJUNCT PROFESSOR: EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW
On Jan 7, 2011, at 5:41 PM, "towertalk-request@contesting.com"
<towertalk-request@contesting.com> wrote:
> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> towertalk-request@contesting.com
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Tower Problems (Joseph or Ruth Patrick)
> 2. Re: Tower Problems (K0DAN)
> 3. Re: Tower Problems (Jim Hargrave)
> 4. Re: Tower Work (Les Kalmus)
> 5. Re: Tower Problems (Grant Saviers)
> 6. Re: Tower Problems (Dick Green WC1M)
> 7. Re: Tower Problems (Dick Green WC1M)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 12:04:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: Joseph or Ruth Patrick <hdmc38@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: Michael Goins <wmgoins@gmail.com>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <387883.16550.qm@web180611.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Hey Mike
>
> ?You need to look for someone that has a Bobcat with a jack hammer on it. We
> use
> them all the time for demolition.
> If the soil is like you say around your area you should be able to find
> someone
> that has what you need. I live in a residential area so?I needed a permit for
> my
> tower.I hired a contractor who came in with 2 guys. They dug the hole,formed
> the
> top,lined the bottom with some pea rock and covered with landscape cloth for
> drainage. They set a short base, passed inspection, and pumped the concrete.
> We
> pitched the foundation about 1" from back to front so no water would lay
> on?It.Full clean up and then he got paid.
> ?Now I paid more then Mickey to have this done, but It was well worth It.?When
> it was done I had a 6' foundation with about 12" of short base plumb and right
> where I wanted it.Hard works done. Next just build the tower.
> ?73 DE K4XZ Joe Patrick
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 14:09:42 -0600
> From: "K0DAN" <k0dan@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: "Dale M. Schwartz" <dale@immlawfirm.com>,
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <4674175466BD463ABAE576E0E10BC3BE@K0DAN>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Ouch! You're to be commended for your honest confession (and I feel your
> pain)! If it was me telling the story publicly I think I'd have bootlegged
> some non-existent call.
>
> We all have "oh sheisse" stories. No, I can't think of one for your right
> now, it'd have to be around a campfire.
>
> My QTH is on unincorporated county land. The county has minimal (but some)
> requirements. The current tower was put up in '99. I researched, studied,
> and complied with everything I could possibly find (state & local
> requirements, manufacturer specs, NEC, grounding standards, concrete/rebar
> standards, you name it)...AS FAR AS I KNOW. So far the tower is still here
> and doing well, but I always have these nagging "..what if..." thoughts!
>
> Hope your latest tower design is legal and sturdy!
>
> 73
> dan
> k0dan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dale M. Schwartz" <dale@immlawfirm.com>
> To: <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 1:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
>
>
>> Unfortunately, I can top most of these horror stories. For 25 years I've
>> been a volunteer lawyer for the ARRL and am supposed to be knowledgeable
>> about towers and zoning stuff. We have helped numerous hams with tower
>> legal problems. After being off the air for 8 years, I finally bought a
>> 55' motorized, tilt-over tower from a ham who was moving to a condo in
>> Florida. I had my guys dig a 5' deep hole, installed the mounting bolts,
>> rebar cage, and filled it full of 48 bags of concrete which we had to mix
>> ourselves in a rented concrete mixer. Started the concrete at 4 pm. At
>> 8:30 pm we ran out of sacks of concrete mix and the hole was only 1/2
>> full! We rushed to the store and got there just as Home Depot was
>> closing. Had to beg them to sell us 45 more bags of the stuff. Got it just
>> in time. We didn't finish pouring the concrete until 1 a.m.
>> Three weeks later (I had been out of town) we erected the tower. Then my
>> next door neighbor pointed out to me that I had violated the side-line
>> restrictions on erecting towers, and if the tower ever fell over, it would
>> hit his house. He was absolutely correct. Rather than fight him and city
>> hall, we dug a new hole and started all over further back in the yard.
>> Now all is well. But of all people, I should have known better!
>> Abraham Lincoln said: "He who represents himself in legal matters has a
>> fool for a client." He was so right <g>.
>>
>> Dale K4ROZ
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 15:10:47 -0600
> From: "Jim Hargrave" <w5ifp@gvtc.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: "Michael Goins" <wmgoins@gmail.com>
> Cc: Towertalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <GPEILBFFFIHJIEFHJCOCAEHPCBAA.w5ifp@gvtc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Mike,
>
> Check with a swimming pool installer. They install pools in rock or anywhere
> else. if they dont do the work themselves. I'm sure they could recommend the
> contractor they use to did the holes. A Bobcat mounted Jackhammer/Drill can
> do wonders with the rock in a short time.
> There used to be a swimming pool installer in Leon Valley, a few blocks
> before you get to Huebner. It was on the right hand side coming from Pipe
> Creek.
>
> If you guy the tower, you probably dont need to dig any deeper than you are
> right now. I suspect it ain't gonna sink in solid rock.
>
> 73's Jim
> W5IFP
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Michael Goins
>> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 11:30 AM
>> To: Mickey Baker
>> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
>>
>>
>> Wish that would work here. I'm nearly all solid rock. I have a
>> hole started,
>> but through rock and many days of jackhammering, which is tough at 61. I
>> have a big (as in VW sized big) rock in the hole that I am
>> chipping away at,
>> but I need someone who either can drill holes for the ends of the cage to
>> drop into after cutting the bottom brace off (and then re-weld it back on
>> about 10" higher), or who can help me get down about another
>> 2-2-1/2 feet or
>> so.
>>
>> Getting really frustrated here. Haven't had a tower and decent directional
>> antenna up since the 80's and really want to get this up and operational.
>>
>> Mike, k5wmg
>> Pipe Creek, Texas
>> Green cars, slow boats, big dogs, old trucks, little radios, and
>> summers off
>> to write
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Mickey Baker
>> <fishflorida@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I hired a guy with a backhoe who brought two fellows who spoke neither
>>> English nor Spanish to dig my last foundation. A few hundred
>> dollars and 3
>>> hours later, I had the base rebar cage hanging in the hole and
>> most of the
>>> dirt loaded on a dump truck headed elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Mickey N4MB
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Michael Goins
>> <wmgoins@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah. Can't seem to find local help getting the get base hole
>> done in the
>>>> rock I have here. Quad parts just sitting in the garage, waiting on the
>>>> tower. Some help and one good weekend and I'd be ready for concrete.
>>>>
>>>> Mike, k5wmg
>>>> Pipe Creek, Texas
>>>> Green cars, slow boats, big dogs, old trucks, little radios,
>> and summers
>>>> off
>>>> to write
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:20 PM, <flastormwatcher@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think you've got tower problems?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 Dave KB3GYN
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mickey Baker
>>> Fort Lauderdale, FL
>>> ?Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me,
>>> and I will learn.? Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 16:26:26 -0500
> From: Les Kalmus <w2lk@bk-lk.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Work
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <4D278502.7020103@bk-lk.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I know both and they are both terrific. Hudson Valley Towers is
> probably closer to you and Ray W2RE has a place in Schoharie County
> which is not that far from you.
> Disclaimer: No relationship with either but Ray has done excellent work
> for me.
>
> Les W2LK
>
> On 1/4/2011 5:00 PM, Wayne Kline wrote:
>> Hi Gene
>> threre are two that I am aware of in the tri state area
>>
>> http://www.hudsonvalleytowers.com/
>>
>>
>> Also W2GD ( call book A ok )
>> Do tower work
>>
>> YMMV
>>
>> Wayne W3EA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> From: w2lu@rochester.rr.com
>>> To: towertalk@contesting.com
>>> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 16:27:33 -0500
>>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower Work
>>>
>>> Tom had such good luck with Charlotte I'll try. Anyone know anyone for
>>> tower work, and working on prop pitch motors, near Rochester, NY ?
>>>
>>> Gene / W2LU
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:33:50 -0800
> From: Grant Saviers <grants2@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <4D2794CE.1090801@pacbell.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Another way to go is to split the rock with feathers (also called
> wedges). Check with a local quarry, stonemason, or grave marker outfit
> to see if they will do it. A series of holes is drilled along the grain
> (expertise needed to find it) and split steel cylinders are expanded
> with the feathers. They are very hard steel with maybe a two degree
> taper. The mason hits alternately each one in to the same ping tone and
> eventually without any fuss the rock is cleaved into pieces that a
> backhoe or backhoe with thumb can manage. Amazingly (to me) you can buy
> "splitting feathers" on Amazon.
>
> Except for the hammer drill with the carbide bit to drill the holes,
> this has been done for centuries.
>
> There is also a technique to freeze water in a line of holes, but I've
> never done that, and it takes special refrigeration equipment.
>
> Of course it is much more fun to watch the local blaster play with
> dynamite, been there also, << 500' from a building. Is that a law for you?
>
> Grant KZ1W
>
> On 1/7/2011 9:57 AM, Mickey Baker wrote:
>> You just need the right equipment.
>>
>> You can find someone with an excavator and rock hammer that will make short
>> work of this. The rock hammer is a hydraulic jack hammer that replaces the
>> bucket on the end of the excavator/backhoe. In your part of the country,
>> I'll be that most excavation contractors have one - you can rent one at
>> Sunbelt Rentals in San Antonio, but it will take you some time to use it
>> safely - hire a pro unless you have a lot of other holes that need digging.
>>
>> snip
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 17:36:09 -0500
> From: "Dick Green WC1M" <wc1m73@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: "'Mickey Baker'" <fishflorida@gmail.com>, "Michael Goins"
> <wmgoins@gmail.com>
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Message-ID: <001801cbaebb$48c04a70$da40df50$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> We used just such a rig back in 1997 when we hit a massive seam of ledge
> digging a 4' deep 260' long trench for conduit runs to the tower. My
> recollection was that it cost $750 per day and the machine was rare enough
> in NH that it had to be obtained from a company in MA. I don't recall if the
> transportation costs were included in the $750.
>
> We also hit ledge when digging a 6' x 3' x 4' anchor hole for another tower
> back in 2006. About 1/3 of the hole bordered on a large ledge deposit. This
> time, the excavator operator was able to break up the rock into boulders
> with his bucket and lift them out. A little corner of ledge remained
> sticking into the hole, but the rebar cage cleared it and it probably added
> structural strength to the anchor.
>
> 73, Dick WC1M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickey Baker [mailto:fishflorida@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 12:58 PM
> To: Michael Goins
> Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
>
> You just need the right equipment.
>
> You can find someone with an excavator and rock hammer that will make short
> work of this. The rock hammer is a hydraulic jack hammer that replaces the
> bucket on the end of the excavator/backhoe. In your part of the country,
> I'll be that most excavation contractors have one - you can rent one at
> Sunbelt Rentals in San Antonio, but it will take you some time to use it
> safely - hire a pro unless you have a lot of other holes that need digging.
>
> This isn't inexpensive, but shouldn't break the bank, either. Contractors
> have a minimum billing time for travel/setup - that will likely get the job
> done if you use a local guy.
>
> In many cases, getting a boulder out of a hole isn't an option. This device
> is used to break away the parts of rock that is in your way.
>
> My dad used dynamite for these time things when I was a youngster. That's
> tough when it is near (< 500 feet!) a residence, but a lot of fun.
>
> Mickey N4MB
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Michael Goins <wmgoins@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Wish that would work here. I'm nearly all solid rock. I have a hole
>> started, but through rock and many days of jackhammering, which is tough
> at
>> 61. I have a big (as in VW sized big) rock in the hole that I am chipping
>> away at, but I need someone who either can drill holes for the ends of the
>> cage to drop into after cutting the bottom brace off (and then re-weld it
>> back on about 10" higher), or who can help me get down about another
> 2-2-1/2
>> feet or so.
>>
>> Getting really frustrated here. Haven't had a tower and decent directional
>> antenna up since the 80's and really want to get this up and operational.
>>
>> Mike, k5wmg
>> Pipe Creek, Texas
>> Green cars, slow boats, big dogs, old trucks, little radios, and summers
>> off to write
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Mickey Baker
> <fishflorida@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I hired a guy with a backhoe who brought two fellows who spoke neither
>>> English nor Spanish to dig my last foundation. A few hundred dollars and
> 3
>>> hours later, I had the base rebar cage hanging in the hole and most of
> the
>>> dirt loaded on a dump truck headed elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Mickey N4MB
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Michael Goins <wmgoins@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah. Can't seem to find local help getting the get base hole done in
> the
>>>> rock I have here. Quad parts just sitting in the garage, waiting on the
>>>> tower. Some help and one good weekend and I'd be ready for concrete.
>>>>
>>>> Mike, k5wmg
>>>> Pipe Creek, Texas
>>>> Green cars, slow boats, big dogs, old trucks, little radios, and summers
>>>> off
>>>> to write
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:20 PM, <flastormwatcher@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think you've got tower problems?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 Dave KB3GYN
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk@contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mickey Baker
>>> Fort Lauderdale, FL
>>> "Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me,
>>> and I will learn." Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mickey Baker
> Fort Lauderdale, FL
> "Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me, and
> I will learn." Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 17:44:13 -0500
> From: "Dick Green WC1M" <wc1m73@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
> To: "'Dale M. Schwartz'" <dale@immlawfirm.com>,
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <001901cbaebc$68b6b480$3a241d80$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> My feeling has always been that it's better to order premixed cement than to
> hassle with bags, water and mixers, especially if you need a lot of cement.
> Yes, it's more expensive, but you get professionals mixing the slump
> required by the engineering specs and you don't have to break your back or
> get into the horror-show described below. If you need less than the minimum
> load size, you may be able to arrange with the contract company for a truck
> to stop by your place with the leftovers from another job.
>
> In some cases you can't get a truck to the tower site. Concerete pumps can
> be used, but they're expensive and can leave quite a bit of yard damage in
> their wake. For my last tower project, I had the excavator operator fill a
> wide bucket from the truck and haul loads to the holes. We had to stick some
> 2x4 pieces in the bucket seams to prevent cement from leaking out, but
> otherwise it was straightforward. It took half an hour or so to fill all the
> holes. Money well spent.
>
> 73, Dick WC1M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dale M. Schwartz [mailto:dale@immlawfirm.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 2:30 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower Problems
>
> Unfortunately, I can top most of these horror stories. For 25 years I've
> been a volunteer lawyer for the ARRL and am supposed to be knowledgeable
> about towers and zoning stuff. We have helped numerous hams with tower
> legal problems. After being off the air for 8 years, I finally bought a 55'
> motorized, tilt-over tower from a ham who was moving to a condo in Florida.
> I had my guys dig a 5' deep hole, installed the mounting bolts, rebar cage,
> and filled it full of 48 bags of concrete which we had to mix ourselves in a
> rented concrete mixer. Started the concrete at 4 pm. At 8:30 pm we ran out
> of sacks of concrete mix and the hole was only 1/2 full! We rushed to the
> store and got there just as Home Depot was closing. Had to beg them to sell
> us 45 more bags of the stuff. Got it just in time. We didn't finish pouring
> the concrete until 1 a.m.
> Three weeks later (I had been out of town) we erected the tower.
> Then my next door neighbor pointed out to me that I had violated the
> side-line restrictions on erecting towers, and if the tower ever fell over,
> it would hit his house. He was absolutely correct. Rather than fight him
> and city hall, we dug a new hole and started all over further back in the
> yard. Now all is well. But of all people, I should have known better!
> Abraham Lincoln said: "He who represents himself in legal matters
> has a fool for a client." He was so right <g>.
>
> Dale K4ROZ
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 97, Issue 24
> *****************************************
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