Towertalk
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

To: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>, "Mickey Baker" <fishflorida@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
From: "David Jordan" <wa3gin@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 13:23:48 -0400
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Oh Mike,  Gosh it can't be that bad...

I work for a local government.. when I started here many years ago there were few if any employees that understood radio, cell, RF, anything about our hobby. Lots has changed... amateurs can now easily install up to 50ft tower /mast/pole without much paperwork.

Some folks seem to expect that jurisdictions have a lock on hiring the best and the brightest for half the salary and twice the work hours of the private sector jobs, haha. Anyhow, I got nothing for you as to why your local jurisdiction acted as it did... others are different.

I live in a small city of 250,000... I walked through a permit to install a 100ft Rohn 25 tower in my row house back yard that was 16ft wide by 40ft deep. I never put it up but here is an example of how easy it can be and this was for a structure that was clearly one that should have been denied... the guywire angles would have been way too steep, etc. So, your mileage may vary for sure... best thing I've found is to develop a relationship with the Public Safety folks, find out if there are any volunteer opportunities, get to understand the strengths and weakness of your government process before you act... there were some great suggestions offered in the responses I read...

73,
dave
wa3gin

----- Original Message ----- From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>
To: "Mickey Baker" <fishflorida@gmail.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support


I guess you have had better luck with government employees than I have.

When I put up my first tower there were zero regulations about it. A neighbor complained and the county fired off a letter that said I must take it down with absolutely no basis for the claim. So we hired an attorney at our cost to fight them. They wilted away when they had ground to stand on. My point is why did they come after me instead of doing their JOB and researching the situation and telling the neighbor that my tower was legal.........


Mike W0MU

On 6/5/2014 10:05 AM, Mickey Baker wrote:
Mike,

I've spent a lot of my career servicing government agencies and spent time as director of technology for a county government.

Like any workplace, 20% of the employees do 80% of the work. I don't see much difference in the public vs. private sector. Most government employees realize that their position is contingent upon providing customer service. Adverse interaction with citizens can dramatically affect one's career - but so can approval of structures that don't meet code requirements.

Generally, denial of permits that are of questionable merit is exactly what the public wants. It is up to us, amateurs, the federally licensed "experts", to bring the facts AND the law to light to the government employees. If you don't do a good job with that, you're going to get denied - every time. Typically, they're not engineers and not lawyers, so they are not going to allow something unless there's sufficient data that they should.

If you go in to the building department, fill out a form and submit it without appropriate documentation, you're almost certain to be rejected. Be happy that your next door neighbor can't build a pig barn or explosives factory by filling out a form and yelling about their property rights. Complaining loudly happens more frequently than you'd imagine and it does nothing to advance your cause.

Before I got my permit for my tower in an urban neighborhood, I was denied three times for three different reasons. Each time, a cordial meeting with a different level of government official ended with an pass through one gate.

Be nice, be respectful - typically government employees are underpaid as compared to the private sector.

Get your ducks in a row, find out what you need, appear prepared, contrite and with proof of the legality and safety of your project and you'll get a permit.

Fred Hopengarten has written a great guide to doing exactly that. If you're considering putting up an antenna support, check out: http://www.antennazoning.com/main/page_amateur_radio_main_menu.html

And buy his book with the first $50 of your project funds. It will be worth every penney.

73,

Mickey N4MB





On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:54 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com <mailto:w0mu@w0mu.com>> wrote:

    Most of these gov't agencies are out for themselves.  I have no
    idea why people think they are out to help us.

    Ask them to show you the laws and regulations that give them this
    power.

    Mike W0MU

    On 6/5/2014 6:51 AM, Steve Baughn wrote:

        Clay,

        Reference the building dept issue you might want to start by
        looking up your local ordinances that deal with building
        regulation and see what language they use. Some years back the
        municipality I worked for in Ohio got a hair about a tower I
        had that had been in the ground for a number of years. They
        attempted to call it an accessory structure and a number of
        other things. Bottom line is they had no language that
        pertained to towers to begin with and had never heard of
        PRB-1. They then settled for me paying for a permit after the
        fact. This created another issue as they had no language in
        their fee schedule for towers. This was also resolved. They
        then tried the same thing on another ham. My point is just
        because they tell you something it may pay to double check
        what they are saying and make sure their ordinances are in
        line with what they tell you. They basically had no idea what
        they were talking about but because they had gotten a
        complaint from some nut case they felt obligated to do
        something-even if it was wrong..Gl es 73,

        Steve, WD8NPL

        -----Original Message----- From: Clay Jackson
        Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:59 AM
        To: TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
        Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

        Thanks to all who replied - tried looking for a  BSP on wood
        poles and
        couldn't find the correct index.   Any assistance there would be
        appreciated.

        I'm going to look into some sort of tilt-up "attached pole";
        but, failing
        that, will just do a rotor/mount and then spend the $$ renting
        a bucket
        truck when I need to do maintenance (tree service will rent me
        one with an
        operator for $75/hour).   Main concern on the attached pole
        would be the
        load on the pulley/cable in a wind storm.

        Another big consideration will be permitting - need to call
        the building
        dept tomorrow.  I know amateur antennas below 61' are exempt
        from zoning in
        my county, Benton, WA; but don't know about the BUILDING Dept.
        When I did
        my HyGain AV18HT (24' tower with a 24' mast); the Building
        Dept made me get
        a Washington PE licensed in THIS County to do a full-on
        engineered base
        plan, with a wet-stamp; cost well more than the antenna.

        Any suggestions on the "correct question" would also be
        appreciated - is it
        a "private utility plole" or an "antenna pole" or ??.  We're
        having a big
        addition (that required a permit and multiple inspections) and
        I don't want
        to just put it up while there will be inspectors on-site.

        73!

        Clay
        N7QNM


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim W7RY [mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net
        <mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net>]
        Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:31 PM
        To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>;
        TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>;
        n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
        Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

        BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's)

        BSPs And they are on Google.


        73
        Jim W7RY


        -----Original Message-----
        From: n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:01 PM
        To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com> ;
        TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
        Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support

        Lucky you to get such a pole for free!!!  :D)

        Use NO concrete!  The pole will shrink a little over time and
        there will be
        a crack to let water in and stay there, accelerating the
        rotting of your
        pole!  Concrete will also prevent you from making below ground
        periodic
        inspections per the reference suggested below.

        Backfill with dirt or use some fine-graded sand that you
        "water in"
        to fill all the voids.

        BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's) that *may*
        be posted on
        the web that describes the proper install, loading, etc of
        wood poles.
        Google.  If not, maybe a dedicated Telco ham just might have a
        copy in his
        personal library!

        I'd be tempted to rig the beam and mast with a "tilt-over"
        feature using a
        small winch to make it a no-climb antenna structure.  A
        "cradle" would
        prevent side-to-side movement at the top.

        Now back to my workbench.  :D)

        73,
        Charlie, N0TT

        On Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:15:05 -0700 "Clay Jackson"
        <n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>>
        writes:

            I just "inherited" a 50' (out of the ground, 6' buried)
            utility pole
            (crew was taking it out and told me that if I'd drag it
            off the road,
            I could have
            it).

            I'm thinking about trying to find a rotator and tri-bander
            to put on
            top of it; but, having no experience with such a setup; I
            thought I'd
            seek some advice first.

            So, a few questions.

            I'm sure someone has done this before;  would you be able
            to share
            your experiences?

            I have a friend who can weld anything from steel to
            aluminum and so I
            think
            we can fab up a mount for the rotor.

            Beyond that, thoughts would be appreciated on things like:
            Wind loading - how many sq ft (if any) is reasonable
            before I have to
            use guys (for my HyGain AV18HT the building dept made me
            engineer the
            base for 90K winds, WITH a "wet stamped" drawing)?
            Base - is a 6' hole filled with dirt "good enough" or do I
            need
            something more (if more, would a  6' hole with concrete be
            sufficient)?

            Thanks in advance!

            Clay
            N7QNM





            _______________________________________________



            _______________________________________________
            TowerTalk mailing list
            TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
            http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk



        _______________________________________________



        _______________________________________________
        TowerTalk mailing list
        TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
        http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk

        _______________________________________________



        _______________________________________________
        TowerTalk mailing list
        TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
        http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
        _______________________________________________



        _______________________________________________
        TowerTalk mailing list
        TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
        http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk


    _______________________________________________



    _______________________________________________
    TowerTalk mailing list
    TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
    http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk




--
Mickey Baker, N4MB
Fort Lauderdale, FL
/“Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me, and I will learn.” /Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.

_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>