Oh Mike, Gosh it can't be that bad...
I work for a local government.. when I started here many years ago there
were few if any employees that understood radio, cell, RF, anything about
our hobby. Lots has changed... amateurs can now easily install up to 50ft
tower /mast/pole without much paperwork.
Some folks seem to expect that jurisdictions have a lock on hiring the best
and the brightest for half the salary and twice the work hours of the
private sector jobs, haha. Anyhow, I got nothing for you as to why your
local jurisdiction acted as it did... others are different.
I live in a small city of 250,000... I walked through a permit to install a
100ft Rohn 25 tower in my row house back yard that was 16ft wide by 40ft
deep. I never put it up but here is an example of how easy it can be and
this was for a structure that was clearly one that should have been
denied... the guywire angles would have been way too steep, etc. So, your
mileage may vary for sure... best thing I've found is to develop a
relationship with the Public Safety folks, find out if there are any
volunteer opportunities, get to understand the strengths and weakness of
your government process before you act... there were some great suggestions
offered in the responses I read...
73,
dave
wa3gin
----- Original Message -----
From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>
To: "Mickey Baker" <fishflorida@gmail.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
I guess you have had better luck with government employees than I have.
When I put up my first tower there were zero regulations about it. A
neighbor complained and the county fired off a letter that said I must
take it down with absolutely no basis for the claim. So we hired an
attorney at our cost to fight them. They wilted away when they had ground
to stand on. My point is why did they come after me instead of doing
their JOB and researching the situation and telling the neighbor that my
tower was legal.........
Mike W0MU
On 6/5/2014 10:05 AM, Mickey Baker wrote:
Mike,
I've spent a lot of my career servicing government agencies and spent
time as director of technology for a county government.
Like any workplace, 20% of the employees do 80% of the work. I don't see
much difference in the public vs. private sector. Most government
employees realize that their position is contingent upon providing
customer service. Adverse interaction with citizens can dramatically
affect one's career - but so can approval of structures that don't meet
code requirements.
Generally, denial of permits that are of questionable merit is exactly
what the public wants. It is up to us, amateurs, the federally licensed
"experts", to bring the facts AND the law to light to the government
employees. If you don't do a good job with that, you're going to get
denied - every time. Typically, they're not engineers and not lawyers, so
they are not going to allow something unless there's sufficient data that
they should.
If you go in to the building department, fill out a form and submit it
without appropriate documentation, you're almost certain to be rejected.
Be happy that your next door neighbor can't build a pig barn or
explosives factory by filling out a form and yelling about their property
rights. Complaining loudly happens more frequently than you'd imagine and
it does nothing to advance your cause.
Before I got my permit for my tower in an urban neighborhood, I was
denied three times for three different reasons. Each time, a cordial
meeting with a different level of government official ended with an pass
through one gate.
Be nice, be respectful - typically government employees are underpaid as
compared to the private sector.
Get your ducks in a row, find out what you need, appear prepared,
contrite and with proof of the legality and safety of your project and
you'll get a permit.
Fred Hopengarten has written a great guide to doing exactly that. If
you're considering putting up an antenna support, check out:
http://www.antennazoning.com/main/page_amateur_radio_main_menu.html
And buy his book with the first $50 of your project funds. It will be
worth every penney.
73,
Mickey N4MB
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:54 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com
<mailto:w0mu@w0mu.com>> wrote:
Most of these gov't agencies are out for themselves. I have no
idea why people think they are out to help us.
Ask them to show you the laws and regulations that give them this
power.
Mike W0MU
On 6/5/2014 6:51 AM, Steve Baughn wrote:
Clay,
Reference the building dept issue you might want to start by
looking up your local ordinances that deal with building
regulation and see what language they use. Some years back the
municipality I worked for in Ohio got a hair about a tower I
had that had been in the ground for a number of years. They
attempted to call it an accessory structure and a number of
other things. Bottom line is they had no language that
pertained to towers to begin with and had never heard of
PRB-1. They then settled for me paying for a permit after the
fact. This created another issue as they had no language in
their fee schedule for towers. This was also resolved. They
then tried the same thing on another ham. My point is just
because they tell you something it may pay to double check
what they are saying and make sure their ordinances are in
line with what they tell you. They basically had no idea what
they were talking about but because they had gotten a
complaint from some nut case they felt obligated to do
something-even if it was wrong..Gl es 73,
Steve, WD8NPL
-----Original Message----- From: Clay Jackson
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:59 AM
To: TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
Thanks to all who replied - tried looking for a BSP on wood
poles and
couldn't find the correct index. Any assistance there would be
appreciated.
I'm going to look into some sort of tilt-up "attached pole";
but, failing
that, will just do a rotor/mount and then spend the $$ renting
a bucket
truck when I need to do maintenance (tree service will rent me
one with an
operator for $75/hour). Main concern on the attached pole
would be the
load on the pulley/cable in a wind storm.
Another big consideration will be permitting - need to call
the building
dept tomorrow. I know amateur antennas below 61' are exempt
from zoning in
my county, Benton, WA; but don't know about the BUILDING Dept.
When I did
my HyGain AV18HT (24' tower with a 24' mast); the Building
Dept made me get
a Washington PE licensed in THIS County to do a full-on
engineered base
plan, with a wet-stamp; cost well more than the antenna.
Any suggestions on the "correct question" would also be
appreciated - is it
a "private utility plole" or an "antenna pole" or ??. We're
having a big
addition (that required a permit and multiple inspections) and
I don't want
to just put it up while there will be inspectors on-site.
73!
Clay
N7QNM
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim W7RY [mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net
<mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net>]
Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:31 PM
To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>;
TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>;
n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's)
BSPs And they are on Google.
73
Jim W7RY
-----Original Message-----
From: n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:01 PM
To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com> ;
TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
Lucky you to get such a pole for free!!! :D)
Use NO concrete! The pole will shrink a little over time and
there will be
a crack to let water in and stay there, accelerating the
rotting of your
pole! Concrete will also prevent you from making below ground
periodic
inspections per the reference suggested below.
Backfill with dirt or use some fine-graded sand that you
"water in"
to fill all the voids.
BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's) that *may*
be posted on
the web that describes the proper install, loading, etc of
wood poles.
Google. If not, maybe a dedicated Telco ham just might have a
copy in his
personal library!
I'd be tempted to rig the beam and mast with a "tilt-over"
feature using a
small winch to make it a no-climb antenna structure. A
"cradle" would
prevent side-to-side movement at the top.
Now back to my workbench. :D)
73,
Charlie, N0TT
On Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:15:05 -0700 "Clay Jackson"
<n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>>
writes:
I just "inherited" a 50' (out of the ground, 6' buried)
utility pole
(crew was taking it out and told me that if I'd drag it
off the road,
I could have
it).
I'm thinking about trying to find a rotator and tri-bander
to put on
top of it; but, having no experience with such a setup; I
thought I'd
seek some advice first.
So, a few questions.
I'm sure someone has done this before; would you be able
to share
your experiences?
I have a friend who can weld anything from steel to
aluminum and so I
think
we can fab up a mount for the rotor.
Beyond that, thoughts would be appreciated on things like:
Wind loading - how many sq ft (if any) is reasonable
before I have to
use guys (for my HyGain AV18HT the building dept made me
engineer the
base for 90K winds, WITH a "wet stamped" drawing)?
Base - is a 6' hole filled with dirt "good enough" or do I
need
something more (if more, would a 6' hole with concrete be
sufficient)?
Thanks in advance!
Clay
N7QNM
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--
Mickey Baker, N4MB
Fort Lauderdale, FL
/“Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me,
and I will learn.” /Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
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