Yeah - the folks here in Benton County, WA are actually pretty reasonable -
turns out my pole only needs a site plan, a certification that I’m gonna follow
BSPs, $69 and a setback inspection (if it falls, it has to land on my property
:-))
The reason the tower was such a hassle is because apparently our state law
requires ANY "communications tower" be "engineered". But, "poles" are OK :-)
Clay
N7QNM
-----Original Message-----
From: TowerTalk [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of David
Jordan
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2014 10:24 AM
To: W0MU Mike Fatchett; Mickey Baker
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
Oh Mike, Gosh it can't be that bad...
I work for a local government.. when I started here many years ago there were
few if any employees that understood radio, cell, RF, anything about our hobby.
Lots has changed... amateurs can now easily install up to 50ft tower
/mast/pole without much paperwork.
Some folks seem to expect that jurisdictions have a lock on hiring the best and
the brightest for half the salary and twice the work hours of the private
sector jobs, haha. Anyhow, I got nothing for you as to why your local
jurisdiction acted as it did... others are different.
I live in a small city of 250,000... I walked through a permit to install a
100ft Rohn 25 tower in my row house back yard that was 16ft wide by 40ft deep.
I never put it up but here is an example of how easy it can be and this was for
a structure that was clearly one that should have been denied... the guywire
angles would have been way too steep, etc. So, your mileage may vary for
sure... best thing I've found is to develop a relationship with the Public
Safety folks, find out if there are any volunteer opportunities, get to
understand the strengths and weakness of your government process before you
act... there were some great suggestions offered in the responses I read...
73,
dave
wa3gin
----- Original Message -----
From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>
To: "Mickey Baker" <fishflorida@gmail.com>
Cc: <towertalk@contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>I guess you have had better luck with government employees than I have.
>
> When I put up my first tower there were zero regulations about it. A
> neighbor complained and the county fired off a letter that said I must
> take it down with absolutely no basis for the claim. So we hired an
> attorney at our cost to fight them. They wilted away when they had ground
> to stand on. My point is why did they come after me instead of doing
> their JOB and researching the situation and telling the neighbor that my
> tower was legal.........
>
>
> Mike W0MU
>
> On 6/5/2014 10:05 AM, Mickey Baker wrote:
>> Mike,
>>
>> I've spent a lot of my career servicing government agencies and spent
>> time as director of technology for a county government.
>>
>> Like any workplace, 20% of the employees do 80% of the work. I don't see
>> much difference in the public vs. private sector. Most government
>> employees realize that their position is contingent upon providing
>> customer service. Adverse interaction with citizens can dramatically
>> affect one's career - but so can approval of structures that don't meet
>> code requirements.
>>
>> Generally, denial of permits that are of questionable merit is exactly
>> what the public wants. It is up to us, amateurs, the federally licensed
>> "experts", to bring the facts AND the law to light to the government
>> employees. If you don't do a good job with that, you're going to get
>> denied - every time. Typically, they're not engineers and not lawyers, so
>> they are not going to allow something unless there's sufficient data that
>> they should.
>>
>> If you go in to the building department, fill out a form and submit it
>> without appropriate documentation, you're almost certain to be rejected.
>> Be happy that your next door neighbor can't build a pig barn or
>> explosives factory by filling out a form and yelling about their property
>> rights. Complaining loudly happens more frequently than you'd imagine and
>> it does nothing to advance your cause.
>>
>> Before I got my permit for my tower in an urban neighborhood, I was
>> denied three times for three different reasons. Each time, a cordial
>> meeting with a different level of government official ended with an pass
>> through one gate.
>>
>> Be nice, be respectful - typically government employees are underpaid as
>> compared to the private sector.
>>
>> Get your ducks in a row, find out what you need, appear prepared,
>> contrite and with proof of the legality and safety of your project and
>> you'll get a permit.
>>
>> Fred Hopengarten has written a great guide to doing exactly that. If
>> you're considering putting up an antenna support, check out:
>> http://www.antennazoning.com/main/page_amateur_radio_main_menu.html
>>
>> And buy his book with the first $50 of your project funds. It will be
>> worth every penney.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Mickey N4MB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:54 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu@w0mu.com
>> <mailto:w0mu@w0mu.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Most of these gov't agencies are out for themselves. I have no
>> idea why people think they are out to help us.
>>
>> Ask them to show you the laws and regulations that give them this
>> power.
>>
>> Mike W0MU
>>
>> On 6/5/2014 6:51 AM, Steve Baughn wrote:
>>
>> Clay,
>>
>> Reference the building dept issue you might want to start by
>> looking up your local ordinances that deal with building
>> regulation and see what language they use. Some years back the
>> municipality I worked for in Ohio got a hair about a tower I
>> had that had been in the ground for a number of years. They
>> attempted to call it an accessory structure and a number of
>> other things. Bottom line is they had no language that
>> pertained to towers to begin with and had never heard of
>> PRB-1. They then settled for me paying for a permit after the
>> fact. This created another issue as they had no language in
>> their fee schedule for towers. This was also resolved. They
>> then tried the same thing on another ham. My point is just
>> because they tell you something it may pay to double check
>> what they are saying and make sure their ordinances are in
>> line with what they tell you. They basically had no idea what
>> they were talking about but because they had gotten a
>> complaint from some nut case they felt obligated to do
>> something-even if it was wrong..Gl es 73,
>>
>> Steve, WD8NPL
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Clay Jackson
>> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 12:59 AM
>> To: TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> Thanks to all who replied - tried looking for a BSP on wood
>> poles and
>> couldn't find the correct index. Any assistance there would be
>> appreciated.
>>
>> I'm going to look into some sort of tilt-up "attached pole";
>> but, failing
>> that, will just do a rotor/mount and then spend the $$ renting
>> a bucket
>> truck when I need to do maintenance (tree service will rent me
>> one with an
>> operator for $75/hour). Main concern on the attached pole
>> would be the
>> load on the pulley/cable in a wind storm.
>>
>> Another big consideration will be permitting - need to call
>> the building
>> dept tomorrow. I know amateur antennas below 61' are exempt
>> from zoning in
>> my county, Benton, WA; but don't know about the BUILDING Dept.
>> When I did
>> my HyGain AV18HT (24' tower with a 24' mast); the Building
>> Dept made me get
>> a Washington PE licensed in THIS County to do a full-on
>> engineered base
>> plan, with a wet-stamp; cost well more than the antenna.
>>
>> Any suggestions on the "correct question" would also be
>> appreciated - is it
>> a "private utility plole" or an "antenna pole" or ??. We're
>> having a big
>> addition (that required a permit and multiple inspections) and
>> I don't want
>> to just put it up while there will be inspectors on-site.
>>
>> 73!
>>
>> Clay
>> N7QNM
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim W7RY [mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net
>> <mailto:w7ry@centurytel.net>]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2014 7:31 PM
>> To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>;
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>;
>> n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's)
>>
>> BSPs And they are on Google.
>>
>>
>> 73
>> Jim W7RY
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: n0tt1@juno.com <mailto:n0tt1@juno.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:01 PM
>> To: n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com> ;
>> TowerTalk@contesting.com <mailto:TowerTalk@contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Utility Pole as Beam Support
>>
>> Lucky you to get such a pole for free!!! :D)
>>
>> Use NO concrete! The pole will shrink a little over time and
>> there will be
>> a crack to let water in and stay there, accelerating the
>> rotting of your
>> pole! Concrete will also prevent you from making below ground
>> periodic
>> inspections per the reference suggested below.
>>
>> Backfill with dirt or use some fine-graded sand that you
>> "water in"
>> to fill all the voids.
>>
>> BTW, there are Bell System Practices (call BPS's) that *may*
>> be posted on
>> the web that describes the proper install, loading, etc of
>> wood poles.
>> Google. If not, maybe a dedicated Telco ham just might have a
>> copy in his
>> personal library!
>>
>> I'd be tempted to rig the beam and mast with a "tilt-over"
>> feature using a
>> small winch to make it a no-climb antenna structure. A
>> "cradle" would
>> prevent side-to-side movement at the top.
>>
>> Now back to my workbench. :D)
>>
>> 73,
>> Charlie, N0TT
>>
>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2014 15:15:05 -0700 "Clay Jackson"
>> <n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com <mailto:n7qnm-lists@nwlink.com>>
>> writes:
>>
>> I just "inherited" a 50' (out of the ground, 6' buried)
>> utility pole
>> (crew was taking it out and told me that if I'd drag it
>> off the road,
>> I could have
>> it).
>>
>> I'm thinking about trying to find a rotator and tri-bander
>> to put on
>> top of it; but, having no experience with such a setup; I
>> thought I'd
>> seek some advice first.
>>
>> So, a few questions.
>>
>> I'm sure someone has done this before; would you be able
>> to share
>> your experiences?
>>
>> I have a friend who can weld anything from steel to
>> aluminum and so I
>> think
>> we can fab up a mount for the rotor.
>>
>> Beyond that, thoughts would be appreciated on things like:
>> Wind loading - how many sq ft (if any) is reasonable
>> before I have to
>> use guys (for my HyGain AV18HT the building dept made me
>> engineer the
>> base for 90K winds, WITH a "wet stamped" drawing)?
>> Base - is a 6' hole filled with dirt "good enough" or do I
>> need
>> something more (if more, would a 6' hole with concrete be
>> sufficient)?
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Clay
>> N7QNM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Mickey Baker, N4MB
>> Fort Lauderdale, FL
>> /“Tell me, and I will listen. Show me, and I will understand. Involve me,
>> and I will learn.” /Teton Lakota, American Indian Saying.
>
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