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Re: [TowerTalk] Need a Knot Expert

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Need a Knot Expert
From: Robert Harmon <k6uj@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:21:12 -0800
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
Gedas,

I have been following this discussion with interest.  I have a similar 
arrangement on my tower.  I have a 3 foot pipe extending out from the top 
section with a pulley on the end.
A rope goes through the pulley and is attached to the center of an 80 meter 
inverted V.   Like you I can raise and lower the antenna with the rope.  The 
difference is
I dont have another pulley at the bottom and use a loop arrangement to raise 
and lower the antenna.   I have two cleats vertically mounted on a tower leg a 
little over 3
feet apart and after hoisting the antenna up I wind the rope around the two 
cleats.  It takes approximately 10 wraps.  What is the advantage of using a 
loop arrangement 
between two pulleys ?

Bob
K6UJ




> On Nov 27, 2019, at 8:21 PM, Gedas <w8bya@mchsi.com> wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone was going to ask that :-)
> 
> In the past what I have been doing is making a temporary loop (you know the 
> kind that if you pull on the ends with nothing inside the loop, the loop will 
> disappear).....well anyway once the double Bowline knot is hoisted up to the 
> top of the tower and wire antenna attached I create a temporary loop at the 
> bottom and slip it over a smooth curved 3/8" steel hook I have fastened to 
> one of the tower legs. It's not super easy to make because the line is fairly 
> tight but not so tight that I cannot make one. When it's time to lower the 
> antenna I simply pull the loop off that steel hook, pull the knot apart and 
> lower the antenna like a flag.
> 
> Gedas, W8BYA
> 
> Gallery at http://w8bya.com
> Light travels faster than sound....
> This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
> 
> On 11/27/2019 10:23 PM, Howard wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> I'm sorry I don't have any additional knot information than what has already 
>> been provided, however, I have a question.  After you pull the loop for your 
>> dipole to the top pulley, how do you intend to hold the rope in that 
>> position?
>> 
>> 
>> Howard, WA9YBW
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/27/2019 3:50 PM, Gedas wrote:
>>> Hi Wes and TU. I am not sure I am positive what you mean by only a load on 
>>> the upper side of the knot.
>>> 
>>> I am going to have two pulleys, one at the top of the tower and one at the 
>>> bottom. I am going to have a single long rope threaded around both pulleys 
>>> and I am going to use a fisherman's knot or similar to tie the two together 
>>> nice and tight. Not going to be much tension in the rope at this point, 
>>> maybe 10 pounds just to keep both sides of the line nice and tight with no 
>>> slop.
>>> 
>>> Now, I was hoping for a single knot that not only joined the two ends of 
>>> the rope together but that also left me with an open loop so I could easily 
>>> slip in something like a temporary chain link etc and then attach one end 
>>> of a dipole etc to that link.
>>> 
>>> This way from the ground I would be able to hoist up or down that end of 
>>> the dipole as I pleased. Now, when the end of the dipole gets attached to 
>>> the other end of that temporary chain link etc and the dipole is up in the 
>>> air stretched tight there may be 30-40 pounds of tension pulling on that 
>>> line. Since the two pulleys are fixed that tension from the dipole will get 
>>> translated to my ropes going up and down the tower between the pulleys.
>>> 
>>> I have been doing this type of arrangement for 20 years but only with a 
>>> pulley at the top of the tower. Up until now I just had the long single 
>>> rope looped around a round aluminum cross member of my free standing tower.
>>> 
>>> There was some friction with the rope looping around the 3/8" dia round & 
>>> smooth diagonal but I never had a failure. This season I installed a meaty 
>>> pipe across the tower at about the 5' level and attached a pulley at each 
>>> end (I am going to have several ropes going up and down so I can support 
>>> and mess with more then 1 antenna).
>>> 
>>> I hope that paints a more clear picture. So far I have had a lot of great 
>>> ideas and the only issue is me understanding their words and making my 
>>> fingers tie the knots the way I'm supposed to hi-hi.
>>> 
>>> Gedas, W8BYA
>>> 
>>> Gallery at http://w8bya.com
>>> Light travels faster than sound....
>>> This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
>>> 
>>> On 11/27/2019 4:25 PM, Wes wrote:
>>>> I'm with the other Wes on this one. If I understand correctly you only 
>>>> have a load on the upper side of the knot. I would join the ends with any 
>>>> old knot and tie a alpine butterfly loop on the upper side of the knot: 
>>>> https://www.animatedknots.com/alpine-butterfly-loop-knot or one I find 
>>>> easier to tie, a bowline on a bight: 
>>>> https://www.animatedknots.com/bowline-on-a-bight-knot
>>>> 
>>>> Wes  N7WS
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/27/2019 2:06 PM, Wes Attaway (N5WA) wrote:
>>>>> Gedas:
>>>>> 
>>>>> You have received a lot of good suggestions.  Here is one more, and it is
>>>>> pretty simple.  You are apparently not going to be risking anyone's life.
>>>>> You are going to hold up one end of a dipole and there may be 30-40-pounds
>>>>> of tension..
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would just join the two ends of the Dacron rope with a simple square 
>>>>> knot
>>>>> and with 6-inches or so of each rope sticking out from the knot.  Then tie
>>>>> the two ends into a square knot.  Tape the ends to the rope if you want 
>>>>> to.
>>>>> With constant tension this arrangement will never come loose. I have done
>>>>> this many times over many years with ropes into trees and on towers, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Constant tension on the rope will keep the knots nice and tight.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     -------------------
>>>>> Wes Attaway (N5WA)
>>>>> (318) 393-3289 - Shreveport, LA
>>>>> Computer/Cellphone Forensics
>>>>> AttawayForensics.com
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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