We have to consider the casual contester. The op at home, with a loop 15
feet off the ground, and poor terrain. There are a lot of people with this
type of station out there. They don't care that they can't run 200 Qs/hr on
FT8, because on phone they are only making a dozen an hour anyway. They
don't care to learn CW, because it doesn't interest them or they don't have
the time to do so. Many of them may just be using a multiband HF antenna
with a tuner, because that's what they have. They are going to stay on FT8,
because it's easy for them, it gets them new grids, and they don't have to
dedicate a lot of time and effort to it. If stations want to work these
operators, the MUST use digital modes. This means the multiops are going to
go more to digital, which means the smaller serious single ops are going to
have to go digital, etc...
I talk with a lot of young hams, high school and college age. They live in
apartments, dorms, their parent's houses, condos. They CAN'T set up beams
and towers, often they operate portable in a park, they have little budget.
They are also very comfortable on computers, and many of them seem to be
mic shy. This is the next generation of hams. Some go to the big contest
setups (one I speak to regularly was at W2SZ this weekend), some make
roving attempts. Some of them do learn CW and operate phone. The digital
modes are the only things keeping many of them interested in the hobby. In
fact, I know of a couple who have been turned away from the hobby because
so many older hams blast the digital operators as "destroying ham radio."
We talk about FT8 and JT65 as destroying the hobby, where in fact it may be
the thing that keeps it alive.
As a rover, it's a little frustrating that we're going to have to start
carrying computers to keep an edge and run FT8 and similar when the bands
get weaker at night and such. It hasn't hit the microwaves yet, which is
good because that would be even more of a pain for us.
I expect that over the next couple of years that WSJT-X will get better at
handling VHF Contests on FT8. Operators will also get better at using it,
the available documentation online will get better, and we'll see less
catastrophes like happened this past weekend.
I hope not too many of the older ops don't get driven off by the newer
modes. I also really prefer SSB and CW (as bad as my CW is), but I don't
mind FT8, JT65, MSK144 and the other digital modes a whole lot (if I hadn't
fried my digital interface and have been too lazy to fix it, I'd be using
them as well at home). It would be a real shame if guys like K1WHS get
driven away and aren't available to mentor the younger crowd. There's a
huge body of material that operators have accumulated over decades, and a
lot of it is difficult to digest. We need the existing generations of hams
to hammer that knowledge into the brains of the newer generations.
We should be talking about how to teach the FT8-only operator when to use
it, and how SSB can be just as effective at times, and how to improve their
station, etc. We need more multi-op stations. We need more efforts like the
Rochester VHF rover blitz and rover lunch. We need to learn how to coexist
with the FT8 crowd, to get them more involved, not tell them how they are
destroying the hobby.
73,
Sean Waite, WA1TE
On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:19 PM Keith Morehouse <w9rm@calmesapartners.com>
wrote:
> As many of you know, I had been forecasting the "death" of SSB on 6M due to
> FT8 for some time. It has certainly come true on day-to-day openings.
>
> While I understand the attractiveness of the mode for some purposes, FT8 is
> not something any thinking contester should want to use during a Es opening
> on 6M. At least I thought so. Why would a thinking contester want to
> operate a mode that throttles the QSO rate to WELL BELOW 60/hr, regardless
> of activity. BTW, there is NO WAY anybody is going to run 1 per minute on
> FT8 for a entire hour - show me a log, as submitted to ARRL and prove me
> wrong, if you can. In the past, a good contester in a excellent opening
> COULD and DID run 3-4/minute as long as that opening stays good. I ran
> 3-4/minute from W5UHF last weekend in the only decent Es opening we had,
> which lasted less then 45 minutes.
>
> Since this discussion is taking place on the VHF *CONTESTING* reflector, I
> assume the members of the list are interested in CONTESTING, not just
> making contacts. Even if you are just interested in making contacts or
> working new grids, I would also assume you would want to do it in the most
> efficient way possible and make the most of any opening. When the band is
> OPEN, that way is via SSB (or CW, to a lesser extent). When the band is
> NOT open well, that way could be FT8 or any other WSJT mode that works for
> you.
>
> As far as my "death" forecast is concerned, I have seen mixed opinions and
> mixed results. K1TO appeared to have had no lack of SSB/CW stations to
> work. N9HF says the same. AF5CC argues the opposite - that FT8 has
> impacted the run rate on SSB. Unfortunately, the station I was at, while
> capable of big rate, never had the kind of opening that would prove my
> forecast one way or the other. Is this something that can even BE proven ?
>
> The bottom line in my mind is the same as before the contest - operate FT8
> (or JT65 or MSK144 or <?>) when the band is marginal or just opening. As
> soon as the band is obviously open, get the heck off the WSJT-X screen and
> on to SSB (or CW, if you wish). This is what we did from W5UHF and it
> worked (as well as it could with limited Es openings). If "you" (the
> collective you) wish to stay on FT8 during a loud Es opening, just remember
> that your rate will suffer immensely, as well as your senses, due to the
> massive QRM. If you are NOT contesting, then remember your ability to make
> contacts and maybe work new grids will be impacted negatively.
>
> If FT8 continues to be the dominate mode during contests, conditions be
> dammed, you will probably find a lot of the talented operators (a lot of
> them are loud stations and easy to work for the masses) missing from future
> contests, or at least from serious participation. Speaking for myself, I
> LIKE TO RUN RATE ! If I can't, because there is no rate to be run, I will
> most definitely reevaluate my participation is ARRL June VHF and CQWW-VHF.
> Why would you care ? Because that's one less multiplier everyone else can
> work....
>
> You all can do as you wish - at least think about what you're doing. As I
> mentioned earlier this spring, FT8 appears to be the first technology
> "breakthrough" embraced by contesting that actually reduces rate.
>
> Any hate mail received direct will be responded to via the reflector, so
> don't - we're having a "state of 6M contesting debate" :)
>
> -W9RM
>
> Keith J Morehouse
> Managing Partner
> Calmesa Partners G.P.
> Olathe, CO
>
> On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 12:36 PM, David Kerl via VHF <
> vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Here at the N9LHS contest station, there were times when were worked 4
> > stations per minute on 6 meters. SSB. I saw the writing on the wall
> BEFORE
> > the contest, and Linda, N9LHS and I decided against using FT8. Its too
> slow
> > during a band opening.
> > Dave N9HF el99
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 2:00 PM, John Geiger via VHF <
> > vhf@w6yx.stanford.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have been waiting a while to see what others experiences were with
> FT8
> > > and the June contest, in case my experience was unique. It doesn't
> > appear
> > > to be.
> > >
> > > First off, I worked VP9I on 6 meter CW Sunday afternoon for country #50
> > on
> > > 6 meters, so the contest was worth it. That was also the only new grid
> I
> > > worked in the contest.
> > >
> > > My experience sounds pretty much like the one that N9LB expressed. I
> > have
> > > been doing FT8 since the of April, and have made a couple of hundred
> QSOs
> > > with it. In the couple of weeks leading up to the June contest I
> worked
> > 1
> > > new 6 meter country-Guatamala, and 5 new grids on 6m using FT8, 4 in
> > Mexico
> > > and the TG grid (EK44).
> > >
> > > On Saturday we had pretty limited Es here in Oklahoma so FT8 appeared
> to
> > be
> > > an asset. I caught a few brief Es openings with it to Arizona,
> > California,
> > > South Carolina, and Virginia. I even worked a few close in grids on
> FT8
> > > groundwave and copied one I still need-DM93, so I know a QSO with that
> > grid
> > > is possible.
> > >
> > > On Sunday the band was open all day, first to Arizona and California,
> and
> > > then to all of the eastern US. 50.313 was best described as a
> > > "Cluster____" and I don't mean DX cluster. Having 150 stations all of
> > > roughly the same frequency is bound to be a disaster. Imagine 150
> > stations
> > > all on 50.125 using SSB. It wouldn't work, so we spread out from
> 50.125
> > to
> > > 50.200 or higher. I worked what stations I could on SSB and CW, but
> > there
> > > weren't that many. Everyone appeared to be hanging around on 50.313
> > > running FT8.
> > >
> > > I have been on 6 meters and I think I have participated in every June
> VHF
> > > contest since 1992, although I did forget to send my log in once or
> > twice.
> > > This was probably the least fun I have ever had in a June contest with
> a
> > > big 6 meter opening. I would call one station on FT8 for 2 or 3
> minutes
> > > with no luck. Move to another one, call, same result...... It
> appears
> > > that many of the bigger contest stations were not having that great of
> > luck
> > > because they were constantly CQing without working stations either. I
> > > think the shear QRM on that frequency overloaded FT8 for most people
> and
> > > their computers were just not decoding anything. I won't even get into
> > the
> > > problems with people calling you in non-contest mode, or calling you
> > while
> > > you were trying to work someone else.
> > >
> > > I worked 44 grids on 6 meters. Had FT8 not been invented and everyone
> > was
> > > still on CW and SSB I think I would have worked at least twice that
> many
> > > grids. I don't have a large 6 meter station, and probably not even a
> > > medium one, but I have worked over 100 grids on 6 in a single VHF
> contest
> > > at least twice, and I think maybe 3 times. This wasn't one of them.
> > >
> > > I hope something gets worked out FT8wise before the 2019 June VHF
> > contest.
> > > People either need to:
> > >
> > > a. Spread out more on FT8, as was suggested. Maybe from 50.313 to
> > 50.320.
> > > b. Use narrow filters on receive. It will obviously greatly cut back
> on
> > > the number of stations you are decoding, but you might be able to work
> > some
> > > of them
> > > c. Use CW/SSB during openings and save FT8 for slower times. Maybe
> this
> > > will happen after the novelty of FT8 wears off. As was mentioned
> > earlier,
> > > the fastest you can make a FT8 QSO is 1 per minute. I am sure W2SZ,
> > W4IY,
> > > and others can run at 4 SSB QSOs per minute during a big opening.
> > >
> > > If this is the new normal for the June VHF contest, I will probably get
> > on
> > > now and then, try to work a few new grids, if I can find any, and
> watch a
> > > lot of baseball on TV that weekend.
> > >
> > > 73 John AF5CC
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Lloyd - N9LB <lloydberg@charter.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > My observations...
> > > >
> > > > 6M was frequently open for the week leading up to the ARRL June VHF
> > > > Contest. I had a chance to play with JT8 during that week. It
> worked
> > > > well, the weak signal capabilities on a non-congested band were
> > > remarkable,
> > > > and I collected many new Fred Fish grids and four new DXCC entities.
> > > >
> > > > However during the contest FT8 really folded up. 50. 313 was
> severely
> > > > overloaded ( actually 50.313 to 50.316 MHz )
> > > >
> > > > Hours of wasted calling, scrambled calls and grids, reception of "one
> > > > shot" CQs, never to be detected again, partial contacts never
> > completed,
> > > no
> > > > clear spots in the Wide Graph spectrum display to TX, etc.
> > > >
> > > > 3KHz just won't hold all the stations that used to occupy
> > 50.100-50.300.
> > > > There needs to be several additional FT8 base frequencies ( maybe
> > 50.316,
> > > > 50.319, 50.323, 50.326, 50.329 maybe even more ??? )
> > > >
> > > > I assume this limitation has already been discovered and that is what
> > > lead
> > > > to the special "DXpedition Mode", but that that won't be of use in a
> > band
> > > > opening during a contest like the June VHF Test.
> > > >
> > > > 73
> > > >
> > > > Lloyd - N9LB EN52
> > > >
> > > > P.S. What the hell is wrong with the guys that were calling "CQ DX"
> > all
> > > > contest long and never responded to any NA stations during the
> contest
> > > when
> > > > the band was open to most of NA ???
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > VHFcontesting mailing list
> > > > VHFcontesting@contesting.com
> > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > VHF mailing list
> > > VHF@w6yx.stanford.edu
> > > https://w6yx.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/vhf
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Это безумно смешно!
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://w6yx.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/vhf
> >
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