In the bandwidth sidebar regarding amplifiers, etc. I would like to make
2 points:
A. Bandwidth and noise power in the receiver is directly related to the
ability to get a signal out of the QRM. Now if my amplifier is operated
properly, almost all the RF power is concentrated into the signal I
am creating, noting wasted. If my receiver is set for 2.4 kHz, anything
outside that bandwidth is wasted power. Be it Wideband SSB or splatter.
This additional demand for bandwidth reduces the total useful power
developed
in the amplifier ...
B. Sometime ago I added small capacitors to the ALC loop in my amplifier.
As I was active in a large 50kw AM station at the time, I was emulating the
timing in professional AGC amplifiers. The result was to increase the
"hang time" in the modulator and hence increase sideband energy, or talk
power. It worked quite well.
Bottom line is to put your money in the communication bandwidth of your
choice, but remember half of the circuit is the receiver.
Gee, maybe that's why CW with small bandwidth can get through when "voice"
modes won't.
Enjoy the Independence Holiday!
ed K0KL
-----Original Message-----
From: amps-bounces@contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com]On
Behalf Of amps-request@contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 8:53 AM
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: Amps Digest, Vol 43, Issue 23
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
(Gudguyham@aol.com)
2. Re: Safety grounding (Gudguyham@aol.com)
3. Re: Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
(R L Measures)
4. Re: Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
(R L Measures)
5. Re: Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
(R L Measures)
6. Re: Bandwidth tests (R L Measures)
7. Re: Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
(Gudguyham@aol.com)
8. Re: How to tune an FL-2100B (Dan Wright)
9. Re: Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
(Gudguyham@aol.com)
10. Re: Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer (Jim Brown)
11. Re: Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A (Tom W8JI)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:26:49 EDT
From: Gudguyham@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
To: kdutson@sbcglobal.net, n3ji@yahoo.com, w8ji@w8ji.com,
w4tv@subich.com, amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <484.4822748.31dbb889@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 7/3/2006 8:50:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kdutson@sbcglobal.net writes:
All I can say is that when there is significant noise & QRM, that extra
couple hundred Hz of articulation seems to make a difference.
Has anyone else experimented with that?
Joe, N3JI
Well, In my years of Dxing or contesting, It seems that a YL voice usually
stands out from all the rest. Anyone who agrees with that understands what
you are trying to say. Lou
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:43:11 EDT
From: Gudguyham@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Safety grounding
To: jim@audiosystemsgroup.com, amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <38c.613c946.31dbbc5f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 7/3/2006 5:44:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jim@audiosystemsgroup.com writes:
In the 4-conductor connector, two contacts are the "hots" (that is,
each is 120 either side of neutral), one is neutral, and the fourth
must be a green equipment ground wire that bonds the equipment
enclosure and backbox. That is the only way to legally (and safely)
use a 4-wire 240/120 volt circuit.
73,
Jim K9YC
Right you are Jim!! One must understand that a "4" wire system here is
correctly referred to as a 240/120 volt circuit, not simply a 4 wire 240
volt
circuit. Also, as far as NEMA goes one should use the proper
plug/receptacle
combo for the system they are matching. Some plugs have "4" pins and are
240/120 volt recognized some a "4" pin and 3 phase recognized. They have
different configurations, but should be used in the right combinations.
One of the
most common mistakes I have seen in electrical wiring done by the "ham" vs
the
"electrician" is when one adds a sub-panel for the ham shack distribution
of AC power. Many do NOT separate the bonds from the neutrals in the
sub-panel which is a code violation. Lou
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 00:36:14 -0700
From: R L Measures <r@somis.org>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
To: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <w4tv@subich.com>
Cc: 'Joe Isabella' <n3ji@yahoo.com>, amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <BA1B41D1-9B8B-4BEC-B2DB-E235590A23C6@somis.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jul 3, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>> On the contrary, Joe. I can prove humans can tell the difference
>> between certain letters, words, and sounds with 4k of audio that
>> you can't with 2.5k.
>
> You may be able to prove that humans can distinguish certain letters,
> words and sounds with 4K audio that they can't with 2.5 K. That's
> not the issue.
If the issue is not understanding human speech, this thread is pretty
much dead.
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@somis.org
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 00:45:15 -0700
From: R L Measures <r@somis.org>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
To: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <w4tv@subich.com>
Cc: Joe Isabella <n3ji@yahoo.com>, "amps@contesting.com Reflector"
<amps@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <83AEC9CC-14B0-4BCC-BF40-0323CCBA4C2E@somis.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jul 3, 2006, at 4:59 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> N3JI writes:
>
>> I agree with you in this case -- 300 to 3.3k (3 kHz total audio
>> bandpass)
>> isn't too bad. That's actually much better than most of you
>> actually do
>> on the HF Amateur bands (I hear 500-2.4k, or 1.9 kHz total audio
>> bandpass
>> often -- and even less than that on occasion!!).
>
> In this area we agree ... I have no problem with 300 to 3000 (2.7
> KHz) or
> even 300 to 3300 (3 KHz) it is those who push it to 100 Hz to 4 KHz or
> even 20 Hz to 5 or 6 KHz that I find objectionable.
Going from 300Hz to 200Hz does nothing for a female voice, but it
does add something to most adult male voices.
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@somis.org
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 00:53:53 -0700
From: R L Measures <r@somis.org>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
To: "Jim Brown" <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Cc: "amps@contesting.com" <amps@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <9D00F24F-0E22-46A8-9459-D38B13487EB1@somis.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jul 3, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>> 4-wire 240v circuits.
>
> A 4-wire 240V circuit requires a 4-contact appliance connector of
> some sort, not a conventional 3-contact 240V outlet, because the
> conventional 240V outlet bonds the third pin (the round pin) to the
> backbox, which grounds it (if the backbox is grounded, which it is
> required to be).
>
> In the 4-conductor connector, two contacts are the "hots" (that is,
> each is 120 either side of neutral), one is neutral, and the fourth
> must be a green equipment ground wire that bonds the equipment
> enclosure and backbox. That is the only way to legally (and safely)
> use a 4-wire 240/120 volt circuit.
>
Correct. The 240v outlet on my Honda generator has 4 conductors, and
two of them carry zero current. How does this make it safe?
> 73,
>
> Jim K9YC
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@somis.org
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 01:14:24 -0700
From: R L Measures <r@somis.org>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Bandwidth tests
To: g3rzp@g3rzp.wanadoo.co.uk
Cc: Joe Isabella <n3ji@yahoo.com>, Michael Tope <W4EF@dellroy.com>,
amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <D99FA641-C2AB-4715-9EEF-1CD37FD61432@somis.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
The most rigorous ALC test audio signal I ever heard came out of the
mouth of a 23 yr old math teacher I used to date by the name of
Sally. If I had had the foresignt to tape record Sally's voice, I'm
sure it would be the Amateur Radio gold standard of ALC test audio.
On Jul 4, 2006, at 12:38 AM, Peter Chadwick wrote:
> Tom said:
>> ALC testing requires a three-tone or pulsed two-tone or
> noise test at various pulse repetition rates. <
>
> How about two very closely spaced tones - 10 or 20Hz apart? That
> should really exercise the ALC circuits - and the PSU effective
> output impedance.
> 73
> Peter G3RZP
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
R L MEASURES, AG6K. 805-386-3734
r@somis.org
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 08:50:25 EDT
From: Gudguyham@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
To: r@somis.org
Cc: amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <307.74aff45.31dbbe11@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 7/3/2006 4:39:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, r@somis.org
writes:
4-wire 240v circuits.
Lou
No such thing........THIS what you refer to is properly termed a 240/120
volt circuit, NOT a 4 wire 240V circuit.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 07:55:15 -0500
From: Dan Wright <dwright12@neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] How to tune an FL-2100B
To: Tom W8JI <w8ji@w8ji.com>, amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060704075036.01a53130@neb.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
x-avg-checked=avg-ok-3B241AEC
Thanks for the nice reply, Tom....
>You actually should load that FL2100 at full Yeasu drive, but that
>would be too much for the little FL2100 for very much time. The
>FL2100 is a terrible AM linear for the FT101.
goody....scratch that idea....
>PEP from the FT101EX could be as much as 150 watts. That means the
>FL2100 needs to be fully loaded at 150 watts of CW carrier drive,
>and that is just too much. You'd need an attenuator pad between the
>amp and rig or really watch your control settings.
Why can't I just reduce the drive on the '101 to 25 watts and drive
the amp with that?
From brief experience:
It looks like if I drive the amp with 25 watts, I get around 125 -130
watts out of the
amp. Four times that (PEP) is 520 watts, well below the 1200 watts PEP
rating
of the amp.
What am I missing here?
>Load the amp heavy enough to handle peaks without saturating or
>over-dissipating the tubes. To do that safely, you will need to add
>two more tubes.
I see....
>73 Tom
73 to you as well, de Dan
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.8/380 - Release Date: 6/30/2006
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:01:48 EDT
From: Gudguyham@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
To: r@somis.org, jim@audiosystemsgroup.com
Cc: amps@contesting.com
Message-ID: <485.4840a19.31dbc0bc@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 7/4/2006 8:51:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, r@somis.org
writes:
Correct. The 240v outlet on my Honda generator has 4 conductors, and
two of them carry zero current. How does this make it safe?
This is not entirely true at all. Assuming you plug something into your
Honda generator that "matches up" to the plug configuration on that
generator,
you are plugging in a device that requires some sort of 120v power. In
this
instance the 3rd wire (white,neutral) will INDEED carry current. IF..that
device did not require 120 volts then the plug configuration would not fit
your
Honda plug. The 4th wire of course is a bond which does not carry current
unless a fault occurs. Lou
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 06:50:42 -0700
From: "Jim Brown" <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Safety grounding - was Mains Isolation Transformer
To: "amps@contesting.com" <amps@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <20060704135125.D9C2B5805D@gw1.nlenet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 00:53:53 -0700, R L Measures wrote:
>Correct. The 240v outlet on my Honda generator has 4 conductors, and
>two of them carry zero current. How does this make it safe?
1) I have no idea how your Honda generator is wired, whether it has
protection
devices (breakers or fuses), or how you intend to use it.
2) The tutorial I prepared several years ago on power and grounding
addresses
power safety issues. This should answer your questions.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/publish
73,
Jim
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 09:52:19 -0400
From: "Tom W8JI" <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Maximum RF output in practical application: 4-250A
To: <Gudguyham@aol.com>, <kdutson@sbcglobal.net>, <n3ji@yahoo.com>,
<w4tv@subich.com>, <amps@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c69f71$18258230$640fa8c0@radioroom>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
> All I can say is that when there is significant noise &
> QRM, that extra
> couple hundred Hz of articulation seems to make a
> difference.
>
> Has anyone else experimented with that?
> Joe, N3JI
I do all the time, and when there is significant noise and
QRM **LESS** bandwidth improves copy provided that bandwidth
is properly centered.
If you listen to widefi AM guys, those with the deepest bass
and highest highs are the very worse to copy when signals
are tough. SSB is no different at all.
This has been known a long long time Joe. Not only is this
thread out of place on an amplifier forum, it has reached an
impasse. People who want WideFi will go through any extreme,
including the use of a white paper created by a company who
sells (no surprise) wide-fi audio systems to replace regular
telephones. Those who don't swallow all the bean soup will
stick with the same arguments Art Collins and the rest went
by, and that any DX'er already knows.
It really is pointless to continue this. It's like trying
get a guy with a Hummer to admit it is a waste of resources
or a guy who drive a sports car to enjoy a land-yacht. No
matter what the technical facts or situation, people will
find any reason to justify what they think is right. When I
look at all the banter on Internet or listen to
conversations, it's clear very few audio affectionos seems
to grasp the basics of communications systems. W9AC is a
rare exception who both understands it and has common sense.
People would be well-advised to listen to Paul if they don't
trust respected commercial communication sources.
If the band is not crowded and wide-fi guys are away from
weak signal areas, they can have all the bandwidth they
want. When the band is busy, even if they are there first,
they should be smart enough and considerate enough to
throttle it back to the minimum necessary. The AM guys have
enough sense to confine activity to areas of the band away
from potential problems, and the AM guys also have enough
sense to get off the band when it is crowded.
The only thing I object to is all the nonsense about wider
bandwidth makes better weak signal or is better at QRM
cutting.
I hope this thread dies soon. It has NOTHING to do with
4-250A's. It belongs on a bandwidth forum.
73 Tom
------------------------------
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