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Re: [Amps] brass or BNP hardware

To: <TexasRF@aol.com>, <fqm@msn.com>, <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] brass or BNP hardware
From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:47:40 -0500
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
I just serviced a LK-800C and discovered 6-32 steel hardware in the RF path 
on both sides of the plate blocking cap. One side was darkened overall and 
the other was black where the threads entered the cap, it looked like rust 
under magnification. This amp will do an easy 3500-4000W + with sufficient 
drive.
Ive never noticed a problem with their 3-500Z amps.

Heath uses steel for everything but the power must be low enough to not 
matter. However when I do 6M conversions they get brass. I smoked the steel 
when I started doing SB-200 conversions in the mid 60's.

Nickel is a poor RF conductor, I wouldnt advise it at QRO or at VHF.

Here is a basic shart on RF conductivity, scroll to Page 39. Note how bad SS 
is.

Carl
KM1H


.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <TexasRF@aol.com>
To: <fqm@msn.com>; <amps@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Amps] brass or BNP hardware


> Virtually any metal can be silver plated, even aluminum. Depending on the
> material, there may be one or more layers of other material applied before
> the  silver. Aluminum for example requires a layer of nickel then copper 
> and
> finally  silver. A local plating company can discuss all this with you.
>
> I have had stainless steel screws silver plated for use inside a 1296MHz
> plate cavity. The cost was reasonable as I recall. There is a potential
> problem  of mixing up screws when disassembling for repairs. No danger of 
> this
> when  copper screws are used as the appearance is distinctively different.
>
> 73,
> Gerald K5GW
>
> The big bolts used in telco copper buss bars years ago were solid copper;
> not sure about these days.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/23/2010 12:36:56 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> fqm@msn.com writes:
>
>
> --Forwarded Message Attachment--
> From:  jim.thom@telus.net
> To: amps@contesting.com
> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010  05:23:14 -0800
> Subject: [Amps] brass or BNP hardware
>
> Date: Fri, 19  Nov 2010 13:36:22 -0700
> From: "John Lyles"  <jtml@losalamos.com>
> Subject: [Amps] brass or BNP  hardware
>
>
> In RF power amplifiers, HF to VHF range, I have used brass  or nonmagnetic
> stainless steel hardware for years, after having been "Burned"  by steel
> screws - pun intended. Several times in my career
> I have seen  bolts turned black and tarnished from RF heating this way. If
> RF current can  flow in the steel, then it can make eddy currrent losses 
> and
> heat up. However,  if it is not carrying current, not a problem.
> The reason I try to stick  with brass or SS is that later on, someone is
> working on the product, cannot  remember why this special screw is only in
> this hole and that. So by making it  all one type, when inside the RF
> compartment, you
> make service, repair and  spare parts inventory simpler. These simple
> policies are carried on in my mind  when starting new amplifiers.
> 73
> John
> K5PRO
>
> ##  In  Bings infamous RF software, one of the features is the skin depth
> calculator.  It also has a table that list every kind of metal you can
> think of.    The worst of the bunch was SS.  Per his
> list,  rusted bailing wire would be better than SS.  He didn't say whether
> it  was magnetic, or non magnetic SS.... or if  304 SS or  the cheaper
> variety..which I think is  18 type.
>
> SS  appears to  work fine, if used to clamp cu straps together, etc, where
> the main RF current  patch is not though the actual SS threads. IE: cu 
> strap
> wrapped around a  tubing tank coil, brought back on itself, then
> machine screwed, which  pinchs the cu strap tightly, onto the tank coil.
> Where I   got into trbl was  when  double nutting SS  machine  screws  and
> placing strap between the two nuts.  Then the RF path  is  now through the
> SS threads
> and stuff heats up..fast. [ I did this  on a ceramic vac cap]
>
> The SS that's  locally  available in common sizes like  4-40, 6-32, 8-32,
> 10-32   1/4-20   etc...  will just barely stick to a magnet...and I  mean
> barely...and that's  with a big magnet.  If a small magnet is  used, they 
> won't
> stick at all.
> N6BT  once had a pix on his old F-12  website, where he tried using solid 
> 8
> ga SSS wire  for a 40m helical hair  pin.    The exact dead  center of the
> coil  had  turned  jet black..over  a +/- 1 " portion.
> F-12 typ uses   SS  10-24  hardware at feed point of their ants/yagis'.
> They also double nut them... with the balun lugs between the 2 x  nuts.
>
> ##  I noticed on one of these sites that  supplies ant materials  for high
> power AM  SW  broadcast and  commercial users.... recommended   sizes  of
> hardware   for the  feed points  of various SW  ants...
> including curtain array's... rhombics, V beams, LP yagi's   etc.    It 
> went
> from 1/4-20   and  1/4-28   up to real big stuff like  3/4"..and 1".   It
> was a  table of power VS  bolt size.   Interesting enough... ALL the 
> bolts
> used  consisted of  phosphor bronze.   None of it  was SS / brass / or
> nickel  plated brass.....or anything else.  I'm  sure  Mosley  used 
> phosphor
> bronze  screws  for  the  feed-points  of their yagis.
>
> ##  so what's  the  story on Phosphor bronze?   Is it really the preferred
> material to use for RF  ??     I have yet to try to see if  I can silver
> plate any of this stuff.    Back in the 70's/  80's  and early 90's.. 
> telco's
> used copper bolts into tapped copper  buss bars on a regular basis.
> [1/4"-20   + 5/16"]   But  I  don't think they were solid copper.  I think 
> they
> were copper  plated material, but don't know what the base material
> was.   I  didn't want to scrape any cu off... exposing the base metal, if
> they were  plated... as the CU bolts  were scarce to start with, and we
> needed all  of em.
>
> ##  Brass is plentiful at the local stores.    I  was surprised that they
> even stocked   huge  5/8"  hex  headed   brass bolts, in various lengths. 
> I
> have never  seen nickel plated brass... and never heard of it
> till now.     Phosphor bronze on the other hand, is readily available
> from a  variety of sources, in just abt any size.    I have never had any
> problems  with silver plating CU.     Dunno if it's even  possible  to 
> silver
> plate  say
> phosphor bronze, SS, or  brass/nickel  plated brass.     I don't like the
> way   SS  interacts  with Aluminum  tubing or Aluminum   plate.   The AL
> always ends up grossly  discoloured.
>
> later....... Jim   VE7RF
>
>
> +++  Silver plated stainless steel screws and bolts do exist. We use them
> in
> high-vacuum systems, the silver plating acting as a thread lubricant.
> Most vacuum systems are stainless chambers, tubing and flanges, with
> stainless
> hardware used as fasteners. The screws tend to be a little  expensive,
> probably because of the limited market for them. In a pinch I  have our
> plating shop silver plate ordinary 304 stainless screws. It  works.
>
> Mike K6MDS
>
>
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