Wait months for an antenna. No will talk to you on the phone. Pay for a manual.
WHY ARE YOU BUYING THIS ANTENNA!!
----- Original Message ----
From: "towertalk-request@contesting.com" <towertalk-request@contesting.com>
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 11:00:59 AM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 57, Issue 90
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than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Force12 (Jim Walker)
2. Re: Force12 (Barry)
3. Re: Force12 (Kenneth D. Grimm, K4XL)
4. Re: Commercial towers and lightning (Ethan)
5. Re: GIN POLE RECOMMENDATIONS (Ethan)
6. Re: Force12 (Kenneth D. Grimm, K4XL)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 08:18:48 -0500
From: "Jim Walker" <jim@walkersdomain.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
To: <TowerTalk@contesting.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c7fd1b$1d0fd670$6401a8c0@videopc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've never had a problem obtaining manuals from any equipment/antenna other
than Force12.
I once purchased a C4XL from a ham who had misplaced the instruction
manual. Called Force12 and was told, we don't "give" our manuals out for
free, but they are for sale for $25. I was made to feel as if I was being
held hostage and they were using the sale of their manual as another source
of revenue. It wasn't that they "wouldn't" provide me with a manual, they
wanted to "sell" me a manual. If my intent was to "copy" their design and
build an antenna out of my scrape aluminum, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase
the manual for $25 knowing how much I would be saving. I went back to the
previous owner and told him to look harder for the manual. Luckily, he
found it a couple days later.
I think its unreasonable for any manufacturer to hold users who wish to use
their product hostage by charging them for information they could readily
make available for downloading. No costs involved. Just a few bytes of
storage.
If it is Force12's goal to keep hams from copying their designs, therefore
not posting manuals on their website, they are punishing the masses to keep
a scant few from copying their design. Let's face it, if a ham wants to
copy a design and build their own antenna, they will find the information
somewhere.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Doug Renwick
Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 7:50 AM
To: 'Dan Hearn'; TowerTalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
So we have some 'unreasonable' antenna manufactures like Hy-Gain, CushCraft,
and Spiderbeam who do make their manuals available. What about defunct
manufacturers like Wilson or KLM? What about antennas that are no longer
made like the Hy-Quad 244? Think about it.
Just my opinion.
Doug
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
It is unreasonable to expect a company to make public the complete details
of their designs. I am amazed that some hams have the gall to ask other hams
to copy the info on their antennas and send it to them.
'snip'
Just my opinion.
73, Dan, N5AR
-----Original Message-----
Before I buy anything, I download the manual. After reading the manual, I
often decide not to buy. If there is no manual to download, I don't buy it.
Rick N6RK
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date:
18/09/2007 11:53 AM
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:44:16 +0000
From: Barry <w2up3@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <46F51C30.1010502@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
The manuals don't help much, anyway. Instructions are vague and the
pictures are really pitiful - they look like copies of copies of
copies. Hopefully the new owner(s) will use these comments constructively.
Barry W2UP
Jim Walker wrote:
>
> I've never had a problem obtaining manuals from any equipment/antenna other
> than Force12.
>
> I once purchased a C4XL from a ham who had misplaced the instruction
> manual. Called Force12 and was told, we don't "give" our manuals out for
> free, but they are for sale for $25. I was made to feel as if I was being
> held hostage and they were using the sale of their manual as another source
> of revenue. It wasn't that they "wouldn't" provide me with a manual, they
> wanted to "sell" me a manual. If my intent was to "copy" their design and
> build an antenna out of my scrape aluminum, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase
> the manual for $25 knowing how much I would be saving. I went back to the
> previous owner and told him to look harder for the manual. Luckily, he
> found it a couple days later.
>
> I think its unreasonable for any manufacturer to hold users who wish to use
> their product hostage by charging them for information they could readily
> make available for downloading. No costs involved. Just a few bytes of
> storage.
>
> If it is Force12's goal to keep hams from copying their designs, therefore
> not posting manuals on their website, they are punishing the masses to keep
> a scant few from copying their design. Let's face it, if a ham wants to
> copy a design and build their own antenna, they will find the information
> somewhere.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: towertalk-bounces@contesting.com
> [mailto:towertalk-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Doug Renwick
> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 7:50 AM
> To: 'Dan Hearn'; TowerTalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
>
> So we have some 'unreasonable' antenna manufactures like Hy-Gain, CushCraft,
> and Spiderbeam who do make their manuals available. What about defunct
> manufacturers like Wilson or KLM? What about antennas that are no longer
> made like the Hy-Quad 244? Think about it.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Doug
>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
>
> It is unreasonable to expect a company to make public the complete details
> of their designs. I am amazed that some hams have the gall to ask other hams
> to copy the info on their antennas and send it to them.
> 'snip'
> Just my opinion.
>
> 73, Dan, N5AR
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Before I buy anything, I download the manual. After reading the manual, I
> often decide not to buy. If there is no manual to download, I don't buy it.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1015 - Release Date:
> 18/09/2007 11:53 AM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
--
Barry Kutner, W2UP Newtown, PA
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:09:21 -0400
From: "Kenneth D. Grimm, K4XL" <grimm@sbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
To: Doug Renwick <ve5ra@sasktel.net>
Cc: TowerTalk@contesting.com, 'Dan Hearn' <dhearn@air-pipe.com>
Message-ID: <46F52211.7090408@sbc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250; format=flowed
This is where BAMA can be useful. While I intended BAMA to be for tube
type amateur gear, I've provided storage space for quite a lot of test
gear and even some solid state stuff. Actually, there are a few
"obsolete" antenna manuals in the collection and I have no problem with
hosting more of them. Naturally, I won't be putting the manual for my
new Force 12 Delta 240/230 since Force 12 don't want their manuals to be
freely available. Wilson and Telrex manuals, etc. would be most welcome
as well as any others for antennas no longer in production and for which
the manufacturer doesn't object to free distribution of their info.
73,
Ken K4XL
Doug Renwick wrote:
> So we have some 'unreasonable' antenna manufactures like Hy-Gain,
> CushCraft, and Spiderbeam who do make their manuals available. What
> about defunct manufacturers like Wilson or KLM? What about antennas
> that are no longer made like the Hy-Quad 244? Think about it.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Doug
>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
>
> It is unreasonable to expect a company to make public the complete
> details of their designs. I am amazed that some hams have the gall to
> ask other hams to copy the info on their antennas and send it to them.
> 'snip'
> Just my opinion.
>
> 73, Dan, N5AR
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Before I buy anything, I download the manual. After
> reading the manual, I often decide not to buy. If there
> is no manual to download, I don't buy it.
>
> Rick N6RK
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
--
Ken K4XL
k4xl@arrl.net
*** BoatAnchor Manual Archive ***
On the web at http://bama.sbc.edu and http://bama.edebris.com
FTP site info: bama.sbc.edu login: anonymous p/w: youremailadr
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:20:25 -0400
From: Ethan <ethan@ravenscall.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Commercial towers and lightning
To: Bill Turner <dezrat@copper.net>, towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <46F524A9.4050307@ravenscall.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Bill Turner wrote:
> The comment was made a few days ago about how commercial and emergency
> radios must continue to operate despite direct lightning hits and that
> got me to wondering about something. I know there are experts here who
> would know the answer.
>
> In the case of us hams, the antenna is almost always placed at the
> very top of the tower. Do commercial and emergency installations do it
> the same way? I'm thinking that a non-rotating antenna would be better
> protected against lightning by placing it several feet lower on the
> tower and letting the top most part of the tower protect it.
>
> Is that the case?
>
> 73, Bill W6WRT
>
Commercial towers use lightning rods quite often, though not always.
There are almost always antennas at the top of the tower, simply because
that's the only position that's not partly shielded by the tower
structure. Typically the antennas used are DC grounded, much like a
J-pole antenna. The coax shield is also bonded to the tower near the
antenna and at the bottom of the tower, at the entrance to the building
as well. The building has grounding strips all around it, and lots of
ground rods on the tower and around the building. The best surge
protectors and lightning arrestors money can buy are hooked up, and a
spare radio is ready to hook up in case a direct hit should take out
your radio in spite of all the precautions. Even radio and television
broadcasters will typically have a backup transmitter for such
occasions, and I've even seen television stations with two complete
antenna systems on separate towers a few feet away from each other! And
yes, commercial and emergency radios do get taken out by lightning all
the time. It's just a risk you take when you put your antenna up so high.
Ethan (kc8hes)
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:33:14 -0400
From: Ethan <ethan@ravenscall.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] GIN POLE RECOMMENDATIONS
To: Larry Schimelpfenig <k7sv@comcast.net>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <46F527AA.3070207@ravenscall.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Larry Schimelpfenig wrote:
> Cheat et al,
>
> A year ago we were hoisting assembled sections of AB105 into place at NR4M
> using a special gin pole that Paul K4JA had crafted. Working at the 80 foot
> level, a little too much lateral pull was placed on the hoisted tower
> section by the ground crew to keep it from getting hung up on the existing
> tower. The gin pole had been attached to the top foot and a half of the top
> existing vertical member. That vertical member folded over just below the
> bottom of the gin pole. Fortunately no-one was seriously hurt and we've
> since gone to building 105 piece by piece or assembling large sections and
> craning them into place.
>
> Since then we've rather wondered if the gin pole had been attached to the
> next vertical member down (that had diagonals attached) whether the diagonal
> would have proved enough additional support to keep it from folding over.
> The reason for attaching as we did was to get the most use of the 10 feet of
> gin pole.
>
> When you consider using a gin pole, due consideration must be given not only
> to how strong the pole itself is, but to how strong the attachment point on
> the tower is. Obviously the forces at play when using a gin pole increase as
> the length of the pole is increased, especially as the lateral forces on the
> gin pole increase.
>
> For as easy as it is to build 25, 45 and 55 tower using proper gin poles, I
> don't understand why one would want to complicate things by assembling pairs
> of sections and working with the increased weight and need for additional
> vertical lift.
>
> Be careful up there!
>
> 73de Larry K7SV
>
Yes, be careful! Also, use the right gin pole for the job, attach it
among the tower braces, and never lift more than one section at a time!
People have been killed while attempting to take shortcuts on tower
construction.
If you ever watch a commercial tower company erecting a tower, you might
notice that the gin poles they use are sometimes twice as long as the
sections they're lifting, with more than half the gin pole attached to
the tower. One guy I know used 40 feet of Rohn 25G as a gin pole for
small jobs, and 55G for the big jobs.
Ethan (kc8hes)
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:31:39 -0400
From: "Kenneth D. Grimm, K4XL" <grimm@sbc.edu>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Force12
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Message-ID: <46F5274B.6010900@sbc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Barry wrote:
> The manuals don't help much, anyway. Instructions are vague and the
> pictures are really pitiful - they look like copies of copies of
> copies. Hopefully the new owner(s) will use these comments constructively.
> Barry W2UP
>
Ain't it the truth! Compared to some of the latest version SteppIR
manuals, the Force 12 manuals are "uninspiring." The SteppIR manuals
are available for downloading from the SteppIR web site, are in full
color, with clear and detailed photographs and have been revised
occasionally to take advantage of different and better ways of building
and operating the antennas. The difference in the business philosophies
of the two sets of owners comes across very clearly in the policies they
have adopted regarding their manuals. Nevertheless, some of the Force
12 antennas are killers and I do appreciate the wide variety of antennas
that they have put on the market.
Ken, K4XL
--
Ken K4XL
k4xl@arrl.net
*** BoatAnchor Manual Archive ***
On the web at http://bama.sbc.edu and http://bama.edebris.com
FTP site info: bama.sbc.edu login: anonymous p/w: youremailadr
------------------------------
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