On 9/4/20 7:13 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
A common mode choke is one form of balun.
A different device is the voltage balun,
which is commonly seen in ham radio catalogs.
It is flux coupled and does involve
"magnetizing inductance". Actually, it is
simply an RF transformer packaged for
antenna applications.
But in that case, would permittivity (i.e. tan d term) feature as a
significant loss source? (the OP, Dave's original question) I would
think the dominant (by far) loss is the loss term of the permeability
(mu'').
The second likely source would be IR loss in the conductors.
For completeness, I will mention that a third
device that will function as a balun is the 180 degree hybrid.
Not so common in ham radio antennas, but found
in many solid state amplifiers. It is different
from either a voltage balun or a current balun.
Unfortunately, "balun" is a confusing term of art.
Rick N6RK
On 9/4/2020 5:04 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
Balun/common mode choke what is the difference? Neither
should be magnetizing the core unless you are talking
about a magnetically coupled transformer like the isolation
transformer in an FCP system.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2020-09-03 10:30 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I was referring to a balun with that statement.
Dave AB7E
On 9/3/2020 4:53 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
On 2020-09-03 5:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I remember, though, previous discussions here on TowerTalk where
more knowledgeable people than either you or I pointed out that
damaging core heating in a typical ferrite balun or common mode choke
is far more likely to be the result of dielectric losses due to high
VSWR than it is due to eddy current losses due to high current in
the winding.
Where would that "high current in the winding" come from? VSWR is a
transmission line effect and, as such, the currents in the winding
would be balanced (parallel wire choke) and/or contained on the
*inside* of the shield (coaxial choke). There would be no current
contribution and thus no magnetic field from the transmission mode
currents at any level of VSWR.
Further VSWR does not on its own cause common mode (unbalanced)
currents - thus no increase in common mode current with VSWR. In
any case, with sufficient choking impedance there should be very
little common mode current (and no heating).
The most likely cause(s) of heating are:
1) thermal heating due to I^2R losses in the transmission line -
e.g. a parallel wire balun wound with small gauge wire in
a high power system
2) excessive common mode current - e.g. a balun designed for
14-30 MHz at the feedpoint of a tribander with insulated
elements at the top of shunt fed tower on 160 meters. In
that case the 5-10K Ohms of choking impedance at 14-30 MHz
becomes maybe 1K a 1.8 MHz but the "circuit" impedance at
that point on the tower can be 10-20K meaning the balun
does nothing to prevent (reduce) the common mode current
through the balun/core.
3) possibly poor thermal design (e.g. closed case).
In all cases the issue isn't choice of core material, it is
proper system design.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 2020-09-03 5:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
I've done a BUNCH of Google searching using (among others) the
search phrases "dielectric properties of ferrites", "heating
effects in ferrites", "VSWR failures of baluns", etc and so far not
found a clear discussion of the topic. That first search phrase
alone generated 1,230,000 hits and while I obviously didn't check
them all I did check a LOT of them.
I remember, though, previous discussions here on TowerTalk where
more knowledgeable people than either you or I pointed out that
damaging core heating in a typical ferrite balun or common mode
choke is far more likely to be the result of dielectric losses due
to high VSWR than it is due to eddy current losses due to high
current in the winding. I just hoped that one of those people
would know of a technical link that more rigorously describes the
condition.
What I do know is that ferrites are basically an iron-based ceramic
with other materials (usually other metals) included as dopants to
get various desired properties, such as mu or best frequency range.
Being a ceramic, ferrites are basically insulators with both a
dielectric constant and a loss tangent that results in current flow
(and therefore loss and heating) under RF voltage (E-field)
excitation. That E-field could logically be the result of a high
VSWR ... just like the folks who have stated same in the past.
As I remember, you were asking for others to do some studies that
you could have done yourself. I'm merely asking for a link if
anybody knows of one.
Dave AB7E
On 9/3/2020 11:54 AM, Ron WV4P wrote:
*Dave,
*
*Is that not something you should do yourself ? I recall the
advice you gave me...
*
*
*
/"Neither is expecting/
/someone else to do all the work give you all the answers.
Dave AB7E"/
*Perhaps this is some testing you should do on your own, or at
least the Google search to find other people's work ? *
*
*
*Thanks again for your help when I had questions on Baluns.. *
*
*
*Ron, WV4P*
On Thu, Sep 3, 2020, 1:14 PM David Gilbert <ab7echo@gmail.com
<mailto:ab7echo@gmail.com>> wrote:
Can anyone point me to a technical reference that discusses
dielectric
heating (not magnetic flux related) due to high VSWR in the
ferrite core
of a balun or common mode choke?
Thanks much,
Dave Ab7E
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