[Amps] al-811h question

Mon Feb 22 05:20:37 PST 2010

>From the AL-811H manual,
"Locate the fuse pack with the two 12 ampere fuses and fuse caps. If additional screws areneeded, they will be in the fuse pack also. NOTE: Fuses supplied are for 120/110/100Voperation (Models AL-811H/HY). If you are rewiring the AL-811H for 240/230/220Voperation, you must use 8 ampere fuses. The AL-811HX export model is pre-wired for240V operation and is supplied with 8 ampere fuses."
   The drawing shows the 'hot' and 'neutral'  power line inputs fused.
73  de  AI4WN  Tedd Davison  116 Mountain Shore Dr.  Greenwood, SC 29649 (USA)  Grid:  EM84xg  Email: AI4WN at yahoo.com   

--- On Sun, 2/21/10, amps-request at contesting.com <amps-request at contesting.com> wrote:

From: amps-request at contesting.com <amps-request at contesting.com>
Subject: Amps Digest, Vol 86, Issue 87
To: amps at contesting.com
Date: Sunday, February 21, 2010, 11:20 PM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Henry Hum (johndtate at post.com)
   2. Re: 120 Hz hum from Henry... (Carl)
   3. 120 Hz hum, LC filters (John Lyles)
   4. Re: 120 Hz hum from Henry... (Bill, W6WRT)
   5. AL-811h Question (Charles Mills)
   6. Re: 120 cycle hum from Henry 2K-4 (chas)
   7. Re: 120 Hz hum from Henry... (Carl)
   8. Re: AL-811h Question (Charles Mills)
   9. hotswitching 30s1 (Jim Thomson)
  10. Re: 120 Hz hum from Henry... (Hardy Landskov)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:15:52 -0500
From: johndtate at post.com
Subject: [Amps] Henry Hum
To: Amps at contesting.com
Message-ID: <8CC8173B60111AE-CE8-1017C at web-mmc-m07.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

>>>>When AM became obsolescent, so did the choke-input filter. For 
today's
amps a simple C-input is best.    73, Bill W6WRT

That statement is no longer rings true.  AM has come out of the closet 
again and is many hams prefered mode.  It certainly is my prefered mode 
for casual ragchewing.  SSB lends it self well to DX phone.

At rate, I have the hum from the Henry tamed and what's left seems to 
be 60 cycle hum.  I understand from 2 other people that had this type 
of hum that replacing the stock torroidal filament choke with a bifilar 
wound filament choke did the trick for them.  I'm going to try that and 
I'll report back with my findings.

73, John KX5JT

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:17:12 -0500
From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
To: <garyschafer at comcast.net>, <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>,
    <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <031501cab35c$c537ebe0$6501a8c0 at DAVES>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

Thats old news, a couple of caps takes care of that.

Carl
KM1H

> The choke will improve the "static" regulation but will kill the dynamic
> regulation.
> Hook a scope up to the HV and run some CW with your key. You will see
> negative spikes in the HV. Same on SSB.
> 
> 73
> Gary K4FMX
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: amps-bounces at contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces at contesting.com]
>> On Behalf Of Carl
>> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:43 PM
>> To: dezrat1242 at yahoo.com; amps at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
>> 
>> A choke input filter with sufficient L or a swinging version will
>> improve
>> dynamic regulation over the typical commercial amps single C in any
>> class of
>> service. They were used for decades, and still are, in Class AB and B
>> modulators.
>> 
>> My 1200W LK-500 SSB/CW amp with 26uF filter has a 400-450V swing on the
>> meter. My PP 304TL modulator with an untuned 20H choke input and 24uF of
>> C
>> has a 200V swing. The only purpose of choke tuning was to be able to use
>> less inductance but there have always been reliability tradeoffs.
>> Sometimes
>> bigger is better.
>> 
>> Carl
>> KM1H
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill, W6WRT" <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>
>> To: <amps at contesting.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
>> 
>> 
>> > ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>> >
>> > On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:29:34 -0600, "Roy" <royanjoy at ncn.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Read the article,
>> >>noting the careful tuning to exactly the 120 Hz resonant frequency:
>> >>http://www.qsl.net/i0jx/supply.html
>> >
>> > REPLY:
>> >
>> > In that article, the author states:
>> >
>> > "There are however other approaches offering better regulation
>> > performance (i.e. output voltage stability) at the expense of higher
>> > complexity and cost; in particular the Input Choke Power Supply
>> > (ICPS), in which a choke (L) is inserted between the diodes bridge and
>> > the capacitor, as shown in Fig. 2."
>> >
>> >
>> > That statement is true only in the case of a steady current draw (AM,
>> > RTTY or FM). In the case of CW or SSB, a choke actually decreases the
>> > dynamic regulation. A choke naturally opposes any change in DC current
>> > flow through it and the result will be spikes in the voltage across
>> > it, which are in turn applied across the capacitor and thus the
>> > output. A large capacitor will absorb the spikes to some extent, but
>> > can never eliminate them completely. A few minutes with a scope will
>> > confirm this.
>> >
>> > When AM became obsolescent, so did the choke-input filter. For today's
>> > amps a simple C-input is best.
>> >
>> > 73, Bill W6WRT
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Amps mailing list
>> > Amps at contesting.com
>> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:42:32 -0700
From: John Lyles <jtml at losalamos.com>
Subject: [Amps] 120 Hz hum, LC filters
To: amps at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4B81E108.5020706 at losalamos.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

There is some information here from the old GE Ham News, on power supply
dynamic regulation, on the AM Window:

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/tutor.htm

Also a paper by Wallace Walhgren of the former Electro Engineering, now 
Stangenes Transformers, on transmitter performance without filter chokes.

73
John
K5PRO

> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:02:03 -0500
> From: "Gary Schafer" <garyschafer at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
> To: "'Carl'" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>,
>     <amps at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20100221220153.E793A1B60933 at dayton.contesting.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> The choke will improve the "static" regulation but will kill the dynamic
> regulation.
> Hook a scope up to the HV and run some CW with your key. You will see
> negative spikes in the HV. Same on SSB.
> 
> 73
> Gary K4FMX

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:07:57 -0800
From: "Bill, W6WRT" <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
To: <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <jip3o595n15nsln0hmqvdlgo1mv98lg5er at 4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:40:05 -0500, "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com> wrote:

>I guess you are unfamiliar with almost all commercial ham amps.
>
>Read a few schematics.

REPLY:

The ones I am most familiar with are Alpha and Command. The smallest
filter I have seen there is 35 uF and most are in the 50's. 

You state you have a 24 uF filter and are complaining about poor
regulation. Duh!

73, Bill W6WRT

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:14:59 -0500
From: Charles Mills <w3yni1 at gmail.com>
Subject: [Amps] AL-811h Question
To: amps at contesting.com
Message-ID:
    <607f1e0a1002211814r6f57de98v78938f7deac2790a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On the back of the 811h there are two fuse holders.
One for 120VAC ops and the other for 220VAC ops.

Which is which?  My manual, the way the back is labeled and the manual
I found online just don't make it clear enough for my
satisfaction.

Anyone who owns one willing to drop a hint?  I bought the amp used and
I think they're backwards.

Chuck

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:25:59 -0600
From: chas <chasm at texas.net>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 cycle hum from Henry 2K-4
To: ka4inm at tampabay.rr.com, Amps Amps <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4B81EB37.8030403 at texas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

idle curiosity
what does a 120cps hum sound like?  is that G sharp over middle C ??? <G>

chas  k5dam

Ron Youvan wrote:
>> The Henry has full-wave bridge rectifier then uses an 8 Henry (700ma)
>> filter choke with an oil filled .1mf (7500v) in parallel then an oil
>> filled 20mf (5000v) cap to ground.
> 
>> I've been told those oil filled caps rarely go bad and usually last
>> longer than we do.  Any clues where I should be looking to solve this
>> hum problem?  Of course it's not really noticeable on SSB but I'm sure
>> it's in there as well.
> 
>    The 8 Henry filter choke with an oil filled .1mFd in parallel then an oil filled 20mFd cap to 
> ground is a tuned filter, tuned to 120 Hz.  If you truly have 60 Hz hum, you have a diode open in 
> one of the arms of the bridge rectifier.    If you truly have 120 Hz hum, you have a "detuned 
> filter" possibly the oil filled 20mFd cap has changed value.  Check the values of both caps first.
>    With this, like all power supplies the HUM sounds greater with a higher current draw, from the 
> supply.

-- 
chasm at texas.net   k5dam  Houston, TX

<a href='http://militarysignatures.com'> <img 
src='http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member14013.png' border='0' 
alt='militarysignatures.com'/></a>

--

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:34:03 -0500
From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
To: <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>,    <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <037301cab367$81481a30$6501a8c0 at DAVES>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill, W6WRT" <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>
To: <amps at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...

> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>
> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:40:05 -0500, "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com> wrote:
>
>>I guess you are unfamiliar with almost all commercial ham amps.
>>
>>Read a few schematics.
>
> REPLY:
>
> The ones I am most familiar with are Alpha and Command. The smallest
> filter I have seen there is 35 uF and most are in the 50's.
>
> You state you have a 24 uF filter and are complaining about poor
> regulation. Duh!
>
> 73, Bill W6WRT

Uhh....Im not complaining about the LK-500 regulation, simply stating a 
fact.

Now if you want to look at the classic Alphas of the 7 series, Ameritron, 
Ten Tec, Heath, Dentron, Drake, Swan, etc, etc, you will find them in the 
17-33uF range....duh.

The latest series of some amps have more C as a result of capacitor 
technology, not engineering brilliance.

Going back further to the 1963 NCL-2000 it is 10uF AS PER THE RCA specs for 
the 8122's. Static regulation at 0 to 2000W is 16%. Dynamic is much better 
for SSB.

Carl

> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:03:46 -0500
From: Charles Mills <w3yni1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] AL-811h Question
To: amps at contesting.com
Message-ID:
    <607f1e0a1002211903y41311004g7ac7df0279bf1aa5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Got a couple of replys...my question maybe isn't clear but what I am
unsure of is which fuse holder is which.   The manual and the label on
the back of the amp isn't clear.

I guess I could trace the wiring out to the binding posts but was
hoping someone could save a step.

Chuck

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Charles Mills <w3yni1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On the back of the 811h there are two fuse holders.
> One for 120VAC ops and the other for 220VAC ops.
>
> Which is which? ?My manual, the way the back is labeled and the manual
> I found online just don't make it clear enough for my
> satisfaction.
>
> Anyone who owns one willing to drop a hint? ?I bought the amp used and
> I think they're backwards.
>
> Chuck
>

-- 
=====================================
Charles L. Mills
Westmoreland Co. ARES EC
Amateur Radio Callsign W3YNI
Email: w3yni1 at gmail.com

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:31:58 -0800
From: "Jim Thomson" <Jim.thom at telus.net>
Subject: [Amps] hotswitching 30s1
To: <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <BE7259E3D32243CBBA204D35979F17F5 at JimboPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="iso-8859-1"

Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:16:28 -0800
From: "Mike" <noddy1211 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Hotswitching issues 30s-1

Key the amplifier and send the PTT signal from it to the transceiver!!!
Alex 4Z5KS 

##  IF you key the amps relays 1st....THEN send a signal back to the xcvr's
PTT input, what happens is you have now truncated the 1st 2-18 msecs,
or what ever the amps T/R relay's operate time is. 

How about using one of the simple Heil Foot switches, it has two switches
and keys the Amp slightly before rig. 

This would be the simplest way to address your problem.

###  great, but now you are stuck on PTT/footswitch mode. The simple
opto isolator method will eliminate the 15 msec mech spst relay in the
MK-V. As other's have noted,on CW mode only, the yaesu has  the adjustable
0-30 msec  digital delay [buffer] and no dits and dah's  get truncated. [Gives
the T/R relay in the amp a 0-30 msec head start].

##  the heil footswitch is an excellent footswitch though.  With a conventional
footswitch /ptt... IF u start talking b4 u hit the footswitch,  you will have RF 
coming out of the xcvr, b4  relay's in the amp operate. 

##  to get around that problem on the yaesu's.. on ssb mode,  we used an external
9-12 msec delay circuit, that inhibits the  yaesu's built in TX inhibit lead. With that setup,
you trip the vox, the opto keys the amp, then after the 9-12 msec outboard delay, the
yaesu TX inhibit lead is switched, and RF now flows from the xcvr.  Problem solved.

##  This external 9-15 msec delay is not required, IF the T/R relay's in the amp are
fast.. like sped up vac relays. [1.8 msec]   In our case,  we were using slow vac relays
[RJ2-B]  which have a 18 msec op time.   Even when we tried to speed the RJ2-B up, it's
still only  9 msec operate time. 

## The TX ibhibit lead function on the 1000-D  and  MK-V  are slick,  but both operate
differently.  The 1000/D  requires a simple grnd to ENABLE the TX inhibit lead. [ grnd
on TX].    The MK-V  requires   +12 vdc  to enable it's tx inhibit lead. 

## in the case of the 1000/D.... the opto keys the amp,  and the spst mech yaesu relay
[after 15 msecs]  applies a solid grnd to the TX inhibit lead, THEN  RF  flows from the xcvr! 
This works good on SSB, BUT will truncate the 1st 15 msec's  on CW.

later... Jim  VE7RF

Mike, K6BR

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:19:59 -0700
From: "Hardy Landskov" <n7rt at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
To: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>, <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>,
    <amps at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <5A118B8B9ABB4837AC23BCED13FAE12E at YOURD724E68B77>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

I really kind of miss those days. You could always tell the Russians and the 
satellite countries with the raspy cw. And then there were the clean cw 
signals but would drift in frequency. You did not know what frequency to 
answer them on. And the VK & Zl stations would turn on their oscillilators 
and just key their amplifiers so you would hear a very low level signal at 
first then a stronger signal as he keyed the final.
At age 15 I had the time of my life. It was the beginning of my career and I 
hope it was the start of many other peoples career also.
Ok end of dialog but it was fun................
73 N7RT

From: "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com>
To: <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>; <amps at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...

>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill, W6WRT" <dezrat1242 at yahoo.com>
> To: <amps at contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Amps] 120 Hz hum from Henry...
>
>
>> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
>>
>> On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:40:05 -0500, "Carl" <km1h at jeremy.mv.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I guess you are unfamiliar with almost all commercial ham amps.
>>>
>>>Read a few schematics.
>>
>> REPLY:
>>
>> The ones I am most familiar with are Alpha and Command. The smallest
>> filter I have seen there is 35 uF and most are in the 50's.
>>
>> You state you have a 24 uF filter and are complaining about poor
>> regulation. Duh!
>>
>> 73, Bill W6WRT
>
> Uhh....Im not complaining about the LK-500 regulation, simply stating a
> fact.
>
> Now if you want to look at the classic Alphas of the 7 series, Ameritron,
> Ten Tec, Heath, Dentron, Drake, Swan, etc, etc, you will find them in the
> 17-33uF range....duh.
>
> The latest series of some amps have more C as a result of capacitor
> technology, not engineering brilliance.
>
> Going back further to the 1963 NCL-2000 it is 10uF AS PER THE RCA specs 
> for
> the 8122's. Static regulation at 0 to 2000W is 16%. Dynamic is much better
> for SSB.
>
> Carl
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
> _______________________________________________
> Amps mailing list
> Amps at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps 

------------------------------

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End of Amps Digest, Vol 86, Issue 87
************************************