[Amps] ceramic vs glass

Sat Jan 24 14:14:11 EST 2015

Carl,

you must really enjoy hosing down the decks with testosterone.  It seems to
be a pattern.  When things turn a bit off for you, you get personnel.  So
be it, that is your style.

I have reviewed the specs sheets and my comments hold true to what they are
saying about the 500 & 400Zs.  Seal temps are the thing.  Both mention that
more cooling will extend tube life.  I see nothing but them insuring you
have the proper sockets & chimneys in place.

In closing, I am very proud to be a Kentucky Col.  It has nothing to due
with current nor past military service.  Go to their site and read the
history.  They are a wonderful group of gentlemen that do great works.  If
you do not like it "* So what about the Kentucky Colonel type of honorific*"
simply block or delete my posts Mr Warrant Officer.  The Naval WOs I worked
with were a nice group of folks.  We had several in the crypto community.
Myself, I held the equivalent of flag rank after departing the Navy for a
real pay check.

Paul
WD8OSU

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Carl <km1h at jeremy.qozzy.com> wrote:

>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Col. Paul E. Cater" <paulecater at gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 11:57 AM
> Cc: "Amps reflector" <amps at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [Amps] ceramic vs glass
>
>  I didn't mention any numbers.  If I did I would have pulled them out my
>> butt like most do.
>>
>
> ** Unfortunately that is true.
>
>
> I really don't know where you would find any reliable
>
>> data on it other then peoples experience and hearsay.
>>
>
>
> ** Myself and several others across the many forums have decades of amp
> experirence repairing them for others or replying to posts. I feel I can
> trust the others and Ive kept pretty good records since the 60's.
>
>
>  Duty cycle plays the
>
>> most important role in all of this.
>>
>
> ** That is the least important as the majority are on SSB and CW is a
> distant second. RTTY is way down on the curve plus amp manuals specify the
> derating for it and AM. Most digital mode users are proud of doing it with
> 100W or less.
>
>
>  My sole point was, tubes properly cooled last way longer in full tilt
>> buggy
>> then those that are not.  The muffin fan jobs you mention and specifically
>> the SBs are not rated anywhere near the tubes capability.  Niether is the
>> P/S for that matter.
>>
>
> Even contesting isnt full tilt use of an amp and there are still many
> flogging a SB-220 which was built as a 1000W CW 2000W PEP INPUT amp. Maybe
> you werent playing ham back in those days.
>
>
>
>> Having used both types at many MARS stations and myself, we opted for
>> something that used chimneys as we did not have to replace the tubes. More
>> money initially but not popping bottles in and out.  I was sitting here
>> trying to recall if I ever replaced a 500z in a top end amp, ie Henry. or
>> whomever.   I do recall putting them in muffin fan decks often.
>>
>
> MARS isnt ham radio
>
>
>  Nope, didn't look up the spec sheet.  Last time I looked at one cooling
>> was
>> stated verses usage with minimums.  I'll have a look.
>>
>> So, my opinion and experience speaking and nothing else.
>>
>
> ** That is obvious.
>
>
>> Paul
>> WD8OSU
>>
>
>
> ** So what about the Kentucky Colonel type of honorific? Id expect a real
> USA, USAF, or USMC Colonel or other officer would
> be a bit upset to see it always in their face. Im just a retired USN WO4
> and don't have to keep pushing it.
>
> Carl
> KM1H
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Carl <km1h at jeremy.qozzy.com> wrote:
>>
>>  I don't know where you get those numbers from but they are obviously
>>> improperly weighted.
>>>
>>> First of all the 3-500  fan amps far outnumber the ones with chimneys by
>>> a
>>> huge amount,
>>> the SB-220/221/HL-2200 alone sold in the 30-50K range according to many.
>>> Fan failures are actually very few if the owners had enough smarts to oil
>>> the bearings and remove the filth off the blades once in awhile. For an
>>> amp
>>> that first sold in 1970 it has an extremely good track record
>>> considering the abuse it gets by clueless hams.
>>>
>>> Reports of SB-220's with filament pin solder melting can always be traced
>>> to builder inability to read and follow directions,
>>> or a later owner being lazy or forgetful.
>>> The positioning of the fan blade on the shaft is critical; plus that
>>> little aluminum top piece is critical to direct air below the
>>> chassis....many left it off after servicing the amp.  A couple of other
>>> brands were designed by those who didn't understand air flow and created
>>> air dams below the chassis; drilling a few 1/4" holes at the end to
>>> equalize release solved that problem.
>>>
>>> The Command Technologies amps are another case of an air dam frying
>>> components; this time the PS board and components.
>>>
>>> The AL-80 family is also a huge 3-500 seller going back 30 years and fans
>>> arent a problem for most even at the ridiculous power the manual says is
>>> OK. Tubes and RF components fail but not due to the fan. When
>>> manufacturers
>>> switch to a cheap plastic fan to save money you can expect noise and
>>> quality problems.
>>>
>>> The Ameritrons with blowers and chimneys have their share of blower
>>> failures or just noisy bearings that owners tolerate; the sales totals
>>> are
>>> actually quite low so you hear little about it but there are far more
>>> active amp forums than this very obsolete email reflector.
>>>
>>> Something else you obviously missed is that Eimac approved in writing and
>>> later in spec sheets the use of fan cooling as far back as the 60's for
>>> the
>>> Johnson Thunderbolt which used 4-400A's. The stipulation was that seal
>>> temperatures not be exceeded and Im not
>>> aware of any 4-400, 3-400, or 3-500 that had a glass meltdown in normal
>>> use....CB use doesn't count!
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl
>>> KM1H
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Col. Paul E. Cater" <paulecater at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 9:40 AM
>>> Cc: "Amps reflector" <amps at contesting.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] ceramic vs glass
>>>
>>>  I'm dubious about some of the ceramics. The ones that require more parts
>>>
>>>> to
>>>> protect it then actually use it and the old Russian jobs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The 500Z is a time proven design. Many of the failures are do to
>>>> mechanical issues, over optimistic ops, and not the tube itself. I have
>>>> never understood why someone would build up a pair of 500s and put a
>>>> muffin
>>>> fan on them. Cheap commercial jobs do this to save money. It is really a
>>>> disservice to the tube and it's capabilities. The mean time between
>>>> failures on muffin fan types and actual blowers with chimneys on these
>>>> guys
>>>> is enormous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> WD8OSU
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Jim Thomson <jim.thom at telus.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 12:53:21 +1030
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Leigh Turner" <invertech at frontierisp.net.au>
>>>>> To: "'Bill Turner'" <dezrat at outlook.com>, <amps at contesting.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Amps] 5 Minutes for Ameritron 811H to warm up?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally I wholeheartedly concur with your sentiments here Bill; most
>>>>> of
>>>>> my shack amps are of the ceramic tube variety and indeed do seem to
>>>>> last
>>>>> forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> My only exception amp is the venerable Kenwood TL-922 with its
>>>>> nostalgic
>>>>> pair of Eimac 3-500Z glass bottles...they too have proven very reliable
>>>>> workhorses!  The proviso rider with any tube is absence of abuse.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73
>>>>>
>>>>> Leigh
>>>>> VK5KLT
>>>>>
>>>>> ##  whats the most anybody has gotten out of these russian ceramic
>>>>> wonder
>>>>> tubes
>>>>> like GU-74B etc ??     Can you get 20 years out of them, beating on em
>>>>> 7
>>>>> days a week,
>>>>> like an Eimac 3-500Z  ?
>>>>>
>>>>> ##  What is longest anybody has gotten out of an Eimac 8877 ??
>>>>>
>>>>> ##  at least with the bigger eimac ceramic tubes, like 3x3, 3x6, 3x10,
>>>>> 4x5, 4x10,
>>>>> they can be re-built till hell freezes over, unlike their throw away,
>>>>> smaller ceramic
>>>>> siblings.   IMO, you get a bigger bang for the $  with the bigger
>>>>> ceramic
>>>>> tubes, esp
>>>>> since being thoriated tungsten fil, you can reduce the fil V way down,
>>>>> like 12% or more,
>>>>> further extending tube life.   Take a 3x3... rated for 2.5 A  CCS plate
>>>>> current...then run it
>>>>> at 1.5 to 1.7 A plate current..alon with reduced fil V.  It will last
>>>>> forever.
>>>>> The typ 2 x 3-500Z amp is rated at 800ma max plate current.... and my
>>>>> L4B
>>>>> runs
>>>>> at 800ma..just to get 1290w po.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim  VE7RF
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Amps mailing list
>>>>> Amps at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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