The trials and Tribs of KP4XS M/M

ramirezk at ramirezk at
Wed Apr 3 15:40:37 EST 1996

 Hi Guys,
    Thanks for the q points this past weekend. We had our share 
of troubles and conditions were very poor but we managed to eek 
out a respectable score. Watch out next year! Major improvements 
will be made.  Our score- 19,611,727.
   For a long story and the score breakdown and operator list 
please read the UU coded attachment. I hope to get some pics in 
attachment format to send out by next week.
     73 Ken KP4XS Back in SC

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>From aa4lr at (Bill Coleman AA4LR)  Wed Apr  3 20:10:36 1996
From: aa4lr at (Bill Coleman AA4LR) (Bill Coleman AA4LR)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:10:36 -0400
Subject: Final QRO
Message-ID: <v01540b04ad8886fa86ab@[]>

>Respectfully Bill, I disagree. I pursued this for a while in hopes that
>I could take a measure of the general feelings of this fairly
>representative group of amateurs. That measure  comes down to about what
>I expected-with sentiment (where present) running against such

This is the part I don't understand, Ed. If sentiment runs so strongly
counter to excessive QRO operation -- why do you insist that it is so

And, if it is so rampant, what can we do about it?

>I could indeed name names. I can tell you there are 3
>specific stations with RG-17 within 5 miles of my house. I have been
>told by others close by that there are several more.

Then name them. Or is the issue sufficiently unclear that you hesitate to
do that? If you are reluctant to name them, then there would seem to be
some doubt as to the nature of their operation.

>Doing something about them is another matter however. The specific three
>are all friends (or at least acquaintances) of mine. No, that does not
>excuse them AT ALL... it does mean however, that AS FAR AS I KNOW-and
>for a continuous weekend I WOULD KNOW-they do NOT use that power at
>length in contests-which was my primary concern in this thread.

But the fact that they use this power level AT ALL indicates there is a
problem we (or you) can address. Using peer pressure, we can assert that
this is unacceptable behavior.

>It is
>just as illegal to simply call a DX station at these levels, but
>considerably less disruptive than a weekend of it (not to mention less
>likely to draw the attention of the FCC.)

Playing devil's advocate from the other side, what's the use of having
multi-kW power if you can't use it?

>While I utterly oppose operation of any sort beyond the law, I am more
>concerned with the bad influence the high power operators have on
>others-and on the FCC-than anything else.

Poor operating practices are a concern for all -- QRO operation amoung them.

> Blatant abuse-such as we have
>been hearing about-is a threat to all of us.

Agreed. So what do we do about it?

>There aren't any easy solutions. Punishing those who are foolish enough
>to be blatant about it, and ostrasizing those who espouse illegal high
>power philosophies seems to me to be the best overall solution-hence
>this entire little go-around the past few days. I think enough was said
>to establish a) many do not care (and they'll remain that way until it
>affects THEM; and b) many do care, and would like to see such abuses
>curtailed-case by case. That sums it up for me.

How can we punish and/or ostracise if we don't know who these folks are?
Furthermore, how can we avoid punishing or ostracising otherwise innocent

My suggestion is to name names, and let public opinion run its course.
Otherwise, we're all shooting in the dark and guessing.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR      Mail: aa4lr at
Quote: "Not in a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

>From aa4lr at (Bill Coleman AA4LR)  Wed Apr  3 20:10:39 1996
From: aa4lr at (Bill Coleman AA4LR) (Bill Coleman AA4LR)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:10:39 -0400
Subject: QRO
Message-ID: <v01540b05ad8889310c26@[]>

>You are wrong Bill. I personally know three two-hole Alphas in regular
>use within 5 miles of my QTH.

And what were their calls?

>I think it IS incorrect to pick on
>contesters alone for only 2 of the three EVER contest, and only 1 of
>those is a SERIOUS contester. The one who does not really contest is the
>only one who DOES-to my knowledge-use RG-17, ...

Mere possession of RG-17 does not make a case for excessive power use.

>the occasional contester is
>thinking about it (and having QRO-related problems), and I simply do not
>know about the third-just his amplifier brand. NONE of the three are
>involved in RTTY, so it ain't a duty cycle thing. I have to
>suspect/expect ANY non-RTTY 'player' who buys (or builds) an amplifier
>having 3000W plate dissapation plans to use it-occasionally or often,
>it's still against the law and cheating, contest-wise.

Overkill in a design is one way of instilling a level of reliability. Given
the previous thread on amplifier failures, some overdesign might be
warranted. (3000W of dissappation seems a bit much, though -- 2000W might
be justified, though)

> Personally I just couldn't enjoy a falsely obtained award.

Are there contesters using excessive QRO power winning awards? Is this
common knowledge? Name names. Let's get those who are guilty DQ'ed.

Bill Coleman, AA4LR      Mail: aa4lr at
Quote: "Not in a thousand years will man ever fly!"
            -- Wilbur Wright, 1901

>From w7ni at (Stan Griffiths)  Wed Apr  3 21:26:13 1996
From: w7ni at (Stan Griffiths) (Stan Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 3rd party traffic
Message-ID: <199604032126.NAA20739 at>

>If we assume that the HOST had the "newborn" contestor using the host call,
>as he said the new fellow would be going for a ticket; then if this is truly
>third party TRAFFIC, what about all the multi stations who have some one
>operatingOTHER than the licensee ???

Usually what happens is that the station owner appoints the actual operator
as the "control operator" and everything works just fine.  The problem
arises when the appointed "control operator" is only an Advanced class
licensee and he strays into the Extra portion of the band.  He is not
eligible to be the control operator there.  At this point, the station owner
assumes the control operator role again and the actual operator becomes a
third party.

>I guess that I always thought of third party traffic as being something other
>than giving a report, ie passing messages to others.

I believe the report IS a message.

>Also, is the "control operator" ALWAYS "observing" activity in a M?M
>operation ?? Does he never sleep ????

The station owner can designate another "control operator" while he sleeps.

Stan  w7ni at

>From w7ni at (Stan Griffiths)  Wed Apr  3 21:16:10 1996
From: w7ni at (Stan Griffiths) (Stan Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:16:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 3rd party stuff
Message-ID: <199604032116.NAA15168 at>

>Looking at the rules makes it apparent that during dx contests quite a few
>of us are violating the rules when we M/M or M/S with less than Extra class
>licensees at the helm....or am I missing something?  The op becomes a 3rd
>party when operating outside of his license class?

That's how I interpret the rules.

>Hmmmmmm......guess I can wink at this one a little easier than the power issue.

Not me.  They are pretty much the same level of violation to me.

Stan  w7ni at

>From w7ni at (Stan Griffiths)  Wed Apr  3 21:16:00 1996
From: w7ni at (Stan Griffiths) (Stan Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:16:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A contester is born...
Message-ID: <199604032116.NAA15059 at>

>>By the way, the "Third Party" could actually be a licensed ham who is not
>>licensed to operate in the portion of the band the QSO is taking place in.
>Wrong. Third is a non-amateur licensed person.  If what you said was 
>correct, messages from amateurs relayed by amateur to another amateur would 
>be third party traffic. It is not. Third-party only refers to NON-licensed 

Can you point me to a section of Part 97 that says that?

I checked Part 97 pretty carefully for that and what I find in Part
97.115(a)(2) is this statement: "This prohibition [third party restrictions]
does not apply to a message for any third party who is eligible to be a
control operator of the station."  Some would interpret this to mean that
since any licensed ham, even no-code Techs, can be a control op for any
station, third part rules do not apply to them.  The catch is that there are
very strict circumstances during which any licensed ham can be a control op
for another station and one of them is that the control op not operate the
station beyond his own license restrictions.  If the means to pass the
message (contest exchange) is beyond the privilieges of the operator (like
on a frequency he is not licensed to operate on), the operator becomes a
"third party" and third party traffic rules apply.  The very best thing we
can do here is comply with the intent of Part 97.  The second best thing is
recognize we are actually NOT complying with the intent of Part 97 and do it
quietly so we don't gather too much attention.  Whether or not you can feel
good about signing a statement saying you obeyed all the rules for amateur
radio in your country after that is strictly a personal decision for you to
make . . .

>>I agree that getting people involved in the hobby is a great idea.  Just
>>have them operate in Field Day or Sweepstakes and give them an "incentive"
>>to get a license to work DX.
>Again, this year, I am going out to FD with a local club.  So far, I have 
>three members starting to get involved in contesting since last years FD and 
>a program that I did on contesting for the club.

Good work, Joe.

>>Stan  w7ni at
>73, K8Joe"Palooka"
>palooka at

>From w7ni at (Stan Griffiths)  Wed Apr  3 21:15:55 1996
From: w7ni at (Stan Griffiths) (Stan Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:15:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A contester is born...
Message-ID: <199604032115.NAA15005 at>

>> The "First Party" is the control op of the U.S. station.  The "Second Party"
>> is the op at the DX station.  The "Third Party" is the unlicensed guest.
>> The personal message passed was the contest exchange.
>but the person at the mic is not passing that information for themselves.

That's generally how it is.  The person on the mike is passing a message for
someone else, in this case, probably the control operator and certainly for
the benefit of the "second party".  

>i would see it the same as having someone record your dvp messages for you
>because you had laryngitis and all you did was push buttons.  you have a
>slightly smart voice keyer under your control.  now if they were holding 
>an independent conversation i could see where there might be problems, but
>not in a contest situation.

The only difference is in the content of the message.  I don't think message
content affects the situation.

 >> By the way, the "Third Party" could actually be a licensed ham who is not
>> licensed to operate in the portion of the band the QSO is taking place in.
>check on that... i am pretty sure the revised rules make it clear that a
>third party is an unlicensed person.  any licensed ham can talk anywhere
>with the proper control op at the power switch.

I did check on it with the best authority I could find, short of going
directly to the FCC: KJ4KB (advised by N3AKD).  You are referring to one
legal opinion regarding the intrepretation of the rules.  There are other
opinions.  I was advised NOT to get the opinion of the FCC because it would
bring this situation into the limelight, the FCC would then have to give an
offcial opinion, and many hams would NOT like the FCC interpretation.  I
read this to mean that the FCC would agree with me and not you.  I don't
plan to ask the FCC to give their "official" interpretation and I think we
would be much better off as a group if we just complied with the intent of
Part 97 in this regard.  We KNOW what the intent is and it isn't to thwart
the basis of "incentive licensing" by allowing unlicensed or lower classed
licensed operators to freely operate in the Extra and Advanced segments of
the band . . . do we REALLY have to go the FCC to put this issue to rest??

>> I agree that getting people involved in the hobby is a great idea.  Just
>> have them operate in Field Day or Sweepstakes and give them an "incentive"
>> to get a licensed to work DX.
>> Stan  w7ni at

>From k0wa at (Lee Buller)  Wed Apr  3 22:00:47 1996
From: k0wa at (Lee Buller) (Lee Buller)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:00:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: QRO HF2000 Amp
Message-ID: <199604032200.QAA15874 at>

Hi people...

I am planning to update the old SB-220 to a more modern amplifier.  
I really hate to say anything after all the talk here on the reflector
about QRO.  But, never the less, I will do so.

I am interested in the QRO Technologies HF2000 linear amp.  Any comments?

Others in the running....Ameritron AL82 and the Centurion from Ten
Tec.  Any others that I am missing.  I cannot afford an Alpha or a 

Anone knows what a 220 is worth these days?

Lee, K0wa
k0wa at

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