[CQ-Contest] Re: Dinged Good QSOs
Trey Garlough
trey at kkn.net
Tue Aug 7 07:44:57 EDT 2001
kk9a at arrl.net writes:
> The rules were written before computerized log checking and maybe
> should be updated.
Have you written a letter to the CQWW folks and made this suggestion?
Have you called anyone on the phone?
I don't mean to single you out, but even though broadcasting an
opinion to the cq-contest mailing list is an excellent way to get
feedback, but it's no substitute for dealing directly with the
decision makers. I don't know what the official method is for getting
CQWW policy changed, but I think your best bet is to lobby K3EST who
is the official front man for the contest. There is one other key guy
who is not an official spokesperson for the contest who often gives
presentations at Dayton about accuracy. If you can sell him on your
suggestions, then you will have an easier time with K3EST.
> While I'm sure that my CQ WW log has some uniques that were really
> busted calls, it still hurts when I some of my good contacts taken
> away.
Yep, I agree 100%. And the fact that you will get the occasional QSL
card that illustrates weaknesses in CQWW log checking algorithms (I'm
right and they're wrong!!) only makes this feeling worse. The UBN
report from CQWW is very interesting because it gives a complete list
of "irregularities" that are found in your log, and then indicates
with a minus sign which QSOs were actually removed. You will notice
that the total number of QSOs removed is but a fraction of the ones
that were considered "irregular".
CQWW asks you to buy into the idea that they are letting you skate on
a lot of irregular QSOs that really *should* be removed, but aren't
because they fall below CQWW's minimum threshold for removal.
Personally, this doesn't make me feel better about losing credit for
undeniably valid QSOs that were judged incorrectly, but with time I
have come to accept it.
What does make me feel better is knowing that the same algorithm,
strengths and weaknesses and all, is applied equally to *every single
log* of consequence (i.e. a log that contains a certain number of QSOs
or is elegible for a certificate) that is submitted. I believe this
improves the integrity of the contest.
Because so little is definitively provable on the part of the log
checkers, CQWW asks you to buy into the idea that a well-supported
guess is good enough. Personally I buy into this argument, though I
find it ironic that "guessing" is exactly the behavior they are
attempting to discourage during the contest.
Here's an example. In Sweepstakes I log a QSO with the following
data:
#1 B KH7D 73 WMA
The fact that K5ZD submits a log that shows his first QSO was with me
and that he copied my data correctly and that he sent the data "#1 B
K5ZD 73 WMA" does not constitute definitive proof that I didn't
actually work KH7D who also had check 73 in Western Mass and gave me
#1 Bravo. In fact, KH7D might be a friend of mine who only got on and
worked only me.
Personally, if there is no log from KH7D and K5ZD submits a log that
shows me as his first QSO, I am willing to accept the ARRL removing
this KH7D QSO from my log (and presumably applying a penalty as well
-- but that doesn't matter because the principle that is at stake is
correctness), even though they are making a well-supported guess and
are not able to *prove* I am wrong. Furthermore I believe the
integrity of the contest is enhanced when this is done.
If you are willing to accept this QSO being removed (and you are still
reading this long message), then you are admitting that you accept the
fact that log checking is a somewhat vague process and you don't
expect 100% correctness in every single QSO that is removed. If we
are still in agreement, then we are no longer arguing in absolute
terms but instead arguing about what threshold of correctness you are
comfortable with. 99 percent? 99.9? 99.99?
If you make 2000 Q's in a contest and mistakenly lose credit for 20,
that's a result that's 99% in your favor. If you mistakenly lose
credit for 2, that's 99.9%.
Unlike me, it's possible you are *not* willing to accept the removal
of the KH7D QSO. If this is the case, then the argument should be
about whether or not log checking enhances the integrity of the
contest or not. In the case of CQWW and their current procedures, I
believe it does.
> Occasionally a multi operator will sign his personal call instead
> of the station callsign by mistake. This can also happen when
> operating portable. In my log a callsign a friend of mine was
> determined busted. My friend tried to help my score by giving me a
> contact which I clearly remember and instead it cost me three!
I have no philosophical advice here -- you made a legitimate QSO and
lost credit, bummer. But I do have some practical advice.
By now everyone should understand that log checking is vague by its
very nature. The way to overcome this vagueness is to provide more
data.
Method #1: Encourage your friend sumbit his one QSO log. This is
foolproof. You will never lose this QSO again.
Method #2: Encourage your friend KH7D to work 10 other guys. This is
not foolproof, but if KH7D works 10 other guys who submit logs, he
lessens his chances from being mistaken for K5ZD from, say, 25% to
0.01%.
Personally I like Method #2 the best because it makes the contest
better for everyone.
[A sidenote: there is a name for this type of contact in the jargon of
the log checking checking community -- those guys call it a Good Buddy
QSO.]
In conclusion, you now have a better understanding of why Good Buddy
QSOs are susceptible to weaknesses in the log checking system. So at
least for now, while you are lobbying K3EST and that other influential
guy to get the log checking policy changed (this could take years),
you know what course of action you and your friends can take to avoid
losing credit for Good Buddy QSOs.
--Trey, N5KO
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>From K0HB at qwest.net" <K0HB at qwest.net Tue Aug 7 14:00:25 2001
From: K0HB at qwest.net" <K0HB at qwest.net (Hans K0HB)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:00:25 +0100
Subject: [CQ-Contest] "Best of the Best" - another query
Message-ID: <01C11F49.695A8C20.K0HB at qwest.net>
Randy Thompson, K5ZD wrote:
> New topic. Who is the best run operator you have ever heard? Someone
> so good that you just enjoyed listening to them.
K6KII, operating from KG6AAY. This was back in the mid/late
60's, long before robo-contesting with computers, keyers,
or super-check-partial. Watching Cliff peel the calls out
of monstrous JA cw pileups for hours and hours on end while
keeping his own paper log was as much fun as watching a magic
act on stage, and harder to believe!
73, Hans, K0HB/ex-KG6AQI
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>From Leigh S. Jones" <kr6x at kr6x.com Tue Aug 7 17:11:11 2001
From: Leigh S. Jones" <kr6x at kr6x.com (Leigh S. Jones)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:11:11 -0700
Subject: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best" - a query (long)
References: <NDBBJODEMLLOGMDJBPCDGECADBAA.k5zd at earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <028a01c11f5b$940dec70$ede3c23f at kr6x.org>
> > What single thing do you do best, and why is it important to your
> > success?
Hans:
I'm a "has-been" in the world of major league contesters, although I
have aspirations of one day re-establishing myself in the memories of
skilled contesting. I know what my greatest flaw is, and can easily
pass this along: after learning to send first with a bug and then with
a single paddle keyer, I changed over to an iambic dual paddle keyer
and have never been able to send the code at low error rates since.
Before this misstep into the unknown, I developed the capability of
balancing hunt-and-peck vs. run modes of operation and changing modes
at the highest efficiency possible. I could accurately factor QSO and
multiplier rates against the use of time on the fly, and got the most
out of radio stations that were far less than the best. It is a skill
that is a little like the CW sprint contest -- running and skipping
and hopping and plopping running again. Float like a butterfly, sting
like a bee.
Although I take great pride in my operating, I admit that there are a
few who have impressed me with their operating skills over the years,
and I would love to speak gloriously about the greatest contesters
I've ever seen in action -- but then, that wasn't your question, was
it. I believe that I have one skill that qualifies me with the best
of the best -- I may be greatest teacher of contesting skills ever to
teach the art. I may not be the greatest executor of contesting, nor
the greatest naturally skilled contest. I'm high ranking in
analytical skills, and can analyze an operator's skills and a
station's capabilities and teach the operator to make the most out of
his station better than any other contest Elmer.
Oh, darn it. I can't resist.
The top CW "run" operator of all time is KH6IJ. Unquestionably he
stands out in the history of contesting. The most highly skilled CW
"hunt and peck" operator of all time is W0UA, but N6TR is growing in
skill year to year and has clearly passed W0UA in "what have you done
for me lately" capability. The most highly skilled CW "dig" operator
of all time is N6AA as evidenced by his 9Y4VT operations, and Dick
might rate as the single contester with the best balance of skills
between both phone and CW.
On phone, N6IG is the top "run" operator of all time, at least among
the English language practitioners, with K7JA giving him a run for his
money, and I am the top phone "hunt and peck" operator (a skill that
is rarely practiced among top contesters in the present) due to my
pile-up breaking vocal qualities and timing. A note here on K7JA is
that he combines Japanese language skills with flawless run technique
and high skills in the hunt and peck categories on both phone and CW,
and is a better all around contester than N6IG. I believe that the
top phone "dig" operator title goes collectively to the 1999 CN8WW 40
meter phone team, although I might have been fooled by the high
quality of their receiving location.
I don't know why the Western half of the US ranks so highly -- I
simply have to say that as a well practiced DX contester I've listened
to the Northeastern contesters who have the high scores for years and
there isn't one of them that has been forced to work as hard at
contesting as the group I listed above. In fact, I believe that
perhaps the truth is that the whole East Coast of the US, and the
entire continent of Europe, is so spoiled by the high signal levels
between their respective locations, and the high run rates that they
can make due to gigantic populations of signals to be worked that they
have never quite learned to do the hard work of DXing. They're a
little like the machine gunners of World War I -- spitting out a lot
of bullets and shooting everyone down but not necessarily developing
the skills of good soldiers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Thompson, K5ZD" <k5zd at earthlink.net>
To: <K0HB at qwest.net>; <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:51 PM
Subject: RE: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best" - a query
>
> The only way to really appreciate the great operators is to sit next
to them
> for awhile listening to the same audio they are. You will quickly
see what
> makes them good. They get things fast and accurately. They know
when to
> ask for repeats. They understand the "game" of contesting and how
to
> motivate/manipulate the people inside the radio to do what they
want.
>
> The other thing you will notice is that they are not spending all of
their
> brain power to work the contest. Their experience, skill, and
talent allow
> them to handle the mechanics of contesting with ease. They can hold
a
> conversation with you without apparently giving up any contesting
skill.
> Visit a multi-multi and watch the back and forth that goes on
between
> quality ops, whether verbally or using the gab function. I learn
something
> from every multi-op I visit.
>
>
> Randy, K5ZD
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-cq-contest at contesting.com
> > [mailto:owner-cq-contest at contesting.com]On Behalf Of Hans K0HB
> > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 02:48 AM
> > To: 'cq-contest at contesting.com'
> > Subject: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best" - a query
> >
> >
> >
> > This message is aimed at the REALLY major-league contesters out
there.
> > (Most of you have been far too quiet here on the reflector
lately! )
> >
> > What single thing do you do best, and why is it important to your
> > success?
> >
> > If I were in your class, what would I appreciate about your
ability or
> > technique?
> > Or in other words, what would another highly accomplished
contester know
> > about your skills that I miss because I'm just an awed
"apprentice"?
> >
> > If you're too modest to talk about yourself, apply the question to
the
> > your personal contesting "hero", the guy you vow to beat this
year.
> >
> > 73, de Hans, K0HB
> >
> >
> > --
> > CQ-Contest on WWW: http://lists.contesting.com/_cq-contest/
> > Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST at contesting.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> CQ-Contest on WWW: http://lists.contesting.com/_cq-contest/
> Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST at contesting.com
>
--
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Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST at contesting.com
>From Timo" <timo.klimoff at kolumbus.fi Tue Aug 7 19:55:59 2001
From: Timo" <timo.klimoff at kolumbus.fi (Timo)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:55:59 +0300
Subject: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best"
References: <NDBBJODEMLLOGMDJBPCDGECADBAA.k5zd at earthlink.net> <028a01c11f5b$940dec70$ede3c23f at kr6x.org>
Message-ID: <002601c11f72$999fbd00$86c5f83e at tklimoff>
> The top CW "run" operator of all time is KH6IJ. Unquestionably he
> stands out in the history of contesting. The most highly skilled CW
> "hunt and peck" operator of all time is W0UA, but N6TR is growing in
> skill year to year and has clearly passed W0UA in "what have you done
> for me lately" capability. The most highly skilled CW "dig" operator
> of all time is N6AA as evidenced by his 9Y4VT operations, and Dick
> might rate as the single contester with the best balance of skills
> between both phone and CW.
>
> On phone, N6IG is the top "run" operator of all time, at least among
> the English language practitioners, with K7JA giving him a run for his
> money, and I am the top phone "hunt and peck" operator (a skill that
> is rarely practiced among top contesters in the present) due to my
> pile-up breaking vocal qualities and timing. A note here on K7JA is
> that he combines Japanese language skills with flawless run technique
> and high skills in the hunt and peck categories on both phone and CW,
> and is a better all around contester than N6IG. I believe that the
> top phone "dig" operator title goes collectively to the 1999 CN8WW 40
> meter phone team, although I might have been fooled by the high
> quality of their receiving location.
Funny to see in this thread that only Americans are all-time best operators ... :)
And I am quite certain that there must be better operator in JA land who works in Japanese better than Chip (who is one of the greatest for sure) hi. (Who was that JA machine at VP2KC?)
73, Timo OH1NOA
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Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST at contesting.com
>From Leigh S. Jones" <kr6x at kr6x.com Tue Aug 7 20:48:58 2001
From: Leigh S. Jones" <kr6x at kr6x.com (Leigh S. Jones)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 12:48:58 -0700
Subject: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best"
References: <NDBBJODEMLLOGMDJBPCDGECADBAA.k5zd at earthlink.net> <028a01c11f5b$940dec70$ede3c23f at kr6x.org> <002601c11f72$999fbd00$86c5f83e at tklimoff>
Message-ID: <02cf01c11f7a$00becce0$ede3c23f at kr6x.org>
I agree 100%. Year in and year out I've found it amazing that my
observations have led me to believe that the Western half of the US
has the contest operators with the highest skill levels. I'm positive
that this is not because I live in the Western half of the US and wish
to show a favoritism for the area. It may be because the skills that
I value most are the skills that are most easily obtained in the
Western half of the US, and these skills may be different from those
that are easily obtained elsewhere.
Everyone who is familiar with my contesting philosophy also knows that
I believe in the future the top operators will generally be recognized
as coming from Europe -- from the great pool of skilled operators in
Italy, Finland and Germany such as the CN8WW group. The reason for
the time lag in recognition of European operators is that the pool of
operators in Europe has recently (in terms of decades) been growing
faster than anywhere else on the Earth. As late as 15 to 20 years ago
there were more Japanese contesters than European contesters active in
the typical DX contests. The smaller pool of European contesters made
it difficult for serious high rate practice to be obtained in European
equivalents of the American "domestic" contests.
And, the state of contesting in Japan is at a low, making it very
difficult indeed to get practice compared to the past. Typically, US,
West Coast stations work between 20% and 35% Japanese stations in
modern DX contests, while US East Coast stations work 90% Europe. The
days of the dominitaion of contesting skills by Western US stations
are certainly coming to an end, but the US East Coast stations are not
the new wave.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timo" <timo.klimoff at kolumbus.fi>
To: <CQ-Contest at contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] To the "Best of the Best"
>
> > The top CW "run" operator of all time is KH6IJ. Unquestionably he
> > stands out in the history of contesting. The most highly skilled
CW
> > "hunt and peck" operator of all time is W0UA, but N6TR is growing
in
> > skill year to year and has clearly passed W0UA in "what have you
done
> > for me lately" capability. The most highly skilled CW "dig"
operator
> > of all time is N6AA as evidenced by his 9Y4VT operations, and Dick
> > might rate as the single contester with the best balance of skills
> > between both phone and CW.
> >
> > On phone, N6IG is the top "run" operator of all time, at least
among
> > the English language practitioners, with K7JA giving him a run for
his
> > money, and I am the top phone "hunt and peck" operator (a skill
that
> > is rarely practiced among top contesters in the present) due to my
> > pile-up breaking vocal qualities and timing. A note here on K7JA
is
> > that he combines Japanese language skills with flawless run
technique
> > and high skills in the hunt and peck categories on both phone and
CW,
> > and is a better all around contester than N6IG. I believe that
the
> > top phone "dig" operator title goes collectively to the 1999 CN8WW
40
> > meter phone team, although I might have been fooled by the high
> > quality of their receiving location.
>
> Funny to see in this thread that only Americans are all-time best
operators ... :)
>
> And I am quite certain that there must be better operator in JA land
who works in Japanese better than Chip (who is one of the greatest for
sure) hi. (Who was that JA machine at VP2KC?)
>
> 73, Timo OH1NOA
>
>
> --
> CQ-Contest on WWW: http://lists.contesting.com/_cq-contest/
> Administrative requests: cq-contest-REQUEST at contesting.com
>
>
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