[CQ-Contest] Be careful

Kelly Taylor ve4xt at mts.net
Sun Jan 2 19:25:19 EST 2005

But Bill...

Nobody ever said they were always better than stacks. The question was,
originally, about portable operations such as the Team Vertical forays.

Certainly, the advantage is lost if you move more than 1/4-wl away from
water (see K2KW's web page).

Sheesh. I don't know why the yagi community feels as though they are under
attack on this one. Who, really, wouldn't prefer multiple 45Gs?

But in a portable situation, where your stuff has to meet airline baggage
requirements, I think the Team Vertical operations present a significant
case for choosing verticals over yagis.

73, kelly

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Tippett" <btippett at alum.mit.edu>
To: <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Be careful

> VE4XT:
>  >And how much extra effort is involved in installing a "small 3-stack"
> verticals? Particularly in a DX-pedition setting?
>          Answer: a LOT more effort.
>  >Is that worth less than an S-unit?
>          Answer:  more like 2 S-units (11.7 dBi).
> Gain Summary (NEC-2, HFTA, YO7, etc.):
> 1.  Single 4-square over salt water = 10.2 dBi
> 2.  Four phased 4-squares over salt water = ~16 dBi
> (I suggested this option just to show what kind of vertical
> array it would take to be more competitive with a Yagi stack).
> 3.  Single 6 el Yagi over average ground = 16.7 dBi
> (10.7 antenna + 6 ground reflection, TOA depends on height)
> 4.  Dual 6 el Yagis over average ground = ~20 dBi
> 5.  Triple 6 el Yagis over average ground = 21.7 dBi
> BOTTOM LINE:  On 10 meters, a single 4-square over salt
> water will only beat a dual stack of Yagis only at TOA's
> below 3 degrees, which represents only about 15% of the
> W4>EU propagation statistics according to HFTA.  Its
> advantage is a single broad lobe covering a wide range
> of TOA's, but it cannot compete with a switchable stack
> which can be focused on particular TOA's as conditions
> change.  Someone asked about a Yagi over salt water...
> HFTA shows virtually no difference between salt water
> and very poor grounds.  You should ask N6BV why that is
> but it may because the incident angles are small enough
> that ground gain is achieved independent of conductivity
> differences.
>          This thread began with a few blanket statements by Yuri:
>  >Verticals on the beach will outdo Yagis at low angles and DX
> I have played with them as N2EE on 10m from Cape Hatteras (US LP record),
> and can vouch for it. Now using some real arrays....
>  >Just to bring to attention that verticals can be awesom, beat Yagis when
> properly used (on salty beaches).
> These statements are not necessarily true, either theoretically
> or in real world results.  As K2KW and I both stated, a verticalarray's
> advantage improves as you go down in frequency, mainly
> because stacked Yagi systems are more difficult to implement there.
> There is no doubt in my mind vertical arrays are the best choice for
> portable operations on salt water, but let's not kid ourselves that
> they are ALWAYS better than Yagi stacks.
>                                                  73,  Bill  W4ZV
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