[CQ-Contest] RBN and CQWW was: Re: CQ WW Update

Wed Nov 24 06:13:05 PST 2010

So if I set up a skimmer at someone else's station it is by definition
'public' since more than just me knows about it... that's nice.  FYI the
rules also do not specify 'private' in any way.

My point is much more generic... a skimmer generating spots is NOT a remote
receiver and as such should not be included under the 500m rule that has in
the past been used to limit the size of the physical station used to make
the contest contacts.  By including skimmer servers in the 500m rule you are
greatly expanding the possible implications of what the station's
'transmitters and receivers used by the entrant' may include.

David Robbins K1TTT
e-mail: mailto:k1ttt at arrl.net
web: http://www.k1ttt.net
AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://dxc.k1ttt.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Naumann [mailto:W5OV at W5OV.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 14:00
> To: 'K1TTT'; cq-contest at contesting.com
> Subject: RE: [CQ-Contest] RBN and CQWW was: Re: CQ WW Update
> 
> Dave,
> 
> What "private" means *in this context* is not subject to debate. It means
> anything deployed outside the 500m circle for the benefit of one station
> only.
> 
> Assuming that whatever you are doing is not deploying something private
> outside of your 500m circle, it is therefore allowed.
> 
> The rules do not specify what "public" is and therefore your question and
> any debate about the term is meaningless aside from it being defined as
> "not-private".
> 
> W5OV
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
> [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of K1TTT
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 6:51 AM
> To: cq-contest at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] RBN and CQWW was: Re: CQ WW Update
> 
> I think the 'public' requirement is going to open another can of worms.
> What constitutes 'public'?  if a skimmer is available to members of only
> one
> club is that 'public'?  If it's open to 2 stations? 3 stations? How about
> cluster nodes, do they also have to be 'public'?  remember, in the
> beginning
> of packet spotting there were many separate club networks, those were
> allowed but were obviously not 'public' in that they were not open to
> everyone and did not share spots with other networks.  I could easily
> limit
> use of my cluster node to only yccc members, would that still be a
> 'public'
> cluster?  If I did the same for my skimmer would that still be 'public'?
> 
> 
> David Robbins K1TTT
> e-mail: mailto:k1ttt at arrl.net
> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://dxc.k1ttt.net
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pete Smith [mailto:n4zr at contesting.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 12:29
> > To: K1TTT
> > Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
> > Subject: [CQ-Contest] RBN and CQWW was: Re: CQ WW Update
> >
> > Wow, quite a flap.  Our little RBN group has no desire to be singled
> > out.  VE7CC does indeed run a Skimmer-enabled node - IIRC you can
> > set/skimmer there and get both Skimmer and regular DXcluster spots.  It
> > covers, I believe, all the Skimmers on the RBN that have published their
> > IP address (some cannot, and some prefer not to).
> >
> > I think the CQWW rule should be modified slightly to add "and other,
> > similar *public* sources of Skimmer spots."  This would permit
> > connecting to VE7CC, other aggregators of Skimmer spots, or individual
> > Skimmers - as Dave has pointed out, this should be permitted.
> >
> > Connecting to the any public source of Skimmer spots only gets you
> > Skimmer *spots* - it does not get you the Skimmer display of an entire
> > swath of the band.  Public Skimmers that are spotting only running
> > stations, and aggregators like the RBN that spot only running stations
> > on HF, should not be a concern, because they cannot be exploited by any
> > individual station to, for example, hear weak Europeans calling them on
> > 160.
> >
> > It seems to me that the ARRL anticipated this in their Skimmer rule,
> > which antedated the RBN.  It has 2 key components (my interpretation) -
> > any remote Skimmer must be public, and it must not be controlled so as
> > to benefit its owner over others. Both of these tests are met by
> > connecting to the RBN, to VE7CC, or to any individual public Skimmer run
> > by someone else.
> >
> > On the RBN reliability front - we now have a second server running at
> > n4zr.reversebeacon.net port 7000, and have offers of two more.  The plan
> > is to use this additional capacity both to spread the load and to add
> > redundancy.  Users will be able to connect to telnet.reversebeacon.net
> > port 7000 and will be assigned to one of the servers, either in a
> > round-robin configuration or in some more fail-safe arrangement, still
> > TBD.  Stay tuned.
> >
> > 73, Pete, N4ZR
> > The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at
> > www.conteststations.com
> > The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
> > reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
> > spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000
> >
> >
> > On 11/23/2010 7:10 PM, K1TTT wrote:
> > > Ah, but that does not prohibit use of spotting networks, which are
> > > specifically allowed by:
> > >
> > > 4. Single Operator Assisted (All Band or
> > > Single Band): ... QSO alerting assistance is
> > > allowed (this includes, but is not limited to,
> > > packet, local or remote Skimmer and/or
> > > Skimmer-like technology, Internet). ...
> > >
> > > And does that not rely on receivers beyond the 500m circle?  So, if I
> > help a
> > > friend set up a receiving system and they put spots into a packet
> > spotting
> > > network is that not legal?  If I replace that friend with a skimmer,
> > what is
> > > different?  Besides that the skimmer doesn't have to sleep or take
> > bathroom
> > > breaks, that is.
> > >
> > >
> > > David Robbins K1TTT
> > > e-mail: mailto:k1ttt at arrl.net
> > > web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > > AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://dxc.k1ttt.net
> > >
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Edward [mailto:sawyered at earthlink.net]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 00:03
> > >> To: w5ov at w5ov.com; 'K1TTT'
> > >> Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
> > >> Subject: RE: [CQ-Contest] CQ WW Update
> > >>
> > >> Unless everyone can use the remote receiver and then its okay...
> > >>
> > >> Glad I stick to simple unassisted.  More fun...less fine print.
> > >>
> > >> Good Luck to all this weekend.
> > >>
> > >> Ed  N1UR
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: w5ov at w5ov.com [mailto:w5ov at w5ov.com]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:14 PM
> > >> To: K1TTT
> > >> Cc: w5ov at w5ov.com; sawyered at earthlink.net; cq-contest at contesting.com
> > >> Subject: RE: [CQ-Contest] CQ WW Update
> > >>
> > >> Dave,
> > >>
> > >> The pertinent part is:
> > >>
> > >> 3. All transmitters and receivers used
> > >> by the entrant must be located within a
> > >> single 500-meter diameter circle or within
> > >> the property limits of the station
> > >> licensee's address, whichever is greater.
> > >>
> > >> 4. All antennas used by the entrant must
> > >> be physically connected by wires to the
> > >> transmitters and receivers used by the
> > >> entrant.
> > >>
> > >> No remote anything is permitted by the above.
> > >>
> > >> You can download the entire current rules here:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.cqww.com/rules/CQWW-Rules-2010.pdf
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 73,
> > >>
> > >> Bob W5OV
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Quote the rule.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> David Robbins K1TTT
> > >>> e-mail: mailto:k1ttt at arrl.net
> > >>> web: http://www.k1ttt.net
> > >>> AR-Cluster node: 145.69MHz or telnet://dxc.k1ttt.net
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: w5ov at w5ov.com [mailto:w5ov at w5ov.com]
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 21:47
> > >>>> To: sawyered at earthlink.net
> > >>>> Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQ WW Update
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It has to do with you installing something outside of your own
> > property
> > >>>> solely for your own use. This sort of thing is expressly forbidden
> in
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> rules.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Public" systems like this that anyone can connect to are all
> > permitted
> > >>>> as
> > >>>> "assistance".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Private vs. public.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Do they provide the same info? Perhaps. But that's not the point.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> de W5OV
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> It doesn't really matter to me since I never use them.contest or
> no
> > >>>>> contest,
> > >>>>> but what exactly is the difference between a personal skimmer
> > located
> > >>>> in
> > >>>>> Europe (for a W/VE contester) and a European Skimmer that displays
> > >> all
> > >>>> its
> > >>>>> info on the net.  Aren't they both remote CW receivers that are
> > >>>> showing
> > >>>>> callsigns and frequencies that can be read by the W/VE station?
> The
> > >>>> CQ
> > >>>> WW
> > >>>>> rules make it seem like one is way more advantageous than the
> other
> > >>>> but
> > >>>> I
> > >>>>> am
> > >>>>> failing to see why.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Ed  N1UR
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> > >>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> > >>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> > >>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> > >>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> > >
> > >
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> 
> 
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