[CQ-Contest] Aniother rules/remote RX issue
W0MU Mike Fatchett
w0mu at w0mu.com
Fri Jun 1 11:43:34 PDT 2012
I agree.
But where do you draw the line if a boy and his radio is SO, which
obviously it is not.
Obviously the advent of certain aids has been allowed for Single ops and
will these aids will continue to be allowed. Keyers, SCP, computer
logging to name a few. ALL of these are advantageous are they not?
I could care less about WWV or keyers for SO, I am simply saying that A
boy a radio, his paper logs and dupe sheet is a fantasy and that contest
sponsors have allowed certain types of assistance while not allowing
others.
I think the sponsors are correct in attempt to stop things like remote
radio receivers, checking the propagation over the long path :) with RBN
etc. I consider computers, keyers, wwv operating aids that are
"passive" in that they do not provide specific feedback other than SCP
which still requires an op to decide if W1AAA was really W1AAA or maybe
W1AAU. Chairs, desks, mice etc are all aids in the comfort of the op.
I think we all agreed that remote receivers to listen to your cq freq
and using RBN to check propagation would both be considered Assisted.
There are no easy answers.
Mike W0MU
W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net:23 or w0mu-1.dnsdynamic.com
Http://www.w0mu.com
On 6/1/2012 10:48 AM, Jimk8mr at aol.com wrote:
> Checking solar conditions (SFI, A/K) via WWV or other means is of
> little direct use. I find it mostly to be useful as a confirmation of
> why conditions seem bad. If conditions seem good I'm too busy to check.
> IMHO general information such as local weather via internet is
> likewise no problem, even if it might be of use to know how long until
> the thunderstorms will arrive.
> Knowing the instantaneous condition of the path from your QTH to
> specific spots in the world via RBN is beyond appropriate for single op.
> 73 - Jim K8MR
> In a message dated 6/1/2012 12:19:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> w0mu at w0mu.com writes:
>
> If we leave it alone, the precedent was set to allow SO the
> ability to
> check propagation numbers via WWV.
>
> Do those number really mean anything? Obviously the op can check
> them
> right up to the contest. Obviously there is no way to know who if
> any
> are checking propagation numbers during the test.
>
> What about prediction software being run throughout the contest?
>
> The skimmer receiver workarounds are simple enough. Move the
> receiver
> outside the circle or use another call.
>
> Where do you draw the line? Obviously computers and computer logging
> are accepted, SCP is accepted.
>
> Some day I see one single op class as it is going to be nearly
> impossible to legislate around all the loopholes and it is nearly
> impossible to police.
>
> Mike W0MU
>
> W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net:23 or w0mu-1.dnsdynamic.com
> Http://www.w0mu.com
>
>
> On 6/1/2012 6:20 AM, Bob Naumann wrote:
> > Dick,
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation of what the CAC recommended
> contrasted with what
> > we ended up with in the ARRL rules. I truly appreciate the
> efforts you put
> > in, and know how thankless a job it is.
> >
> > That said, I am somewhat puzzled as to why the CAC "intended" to
> allow all
> > categories of entry to use remote systems to evaluate propagation?
> >
> > "If the CAC's wording for the rules had been used, the practice
> would
> > definitely be legal for all categories. This is exactly what the CAC
> > intended".
> >
> > Really? The CAC intended to allow all classes of entry to access
> the RBN
> > over the Internet to "check propagation" of their own signals?
> >
> > This goes so against what I believe to be the fundamental
> non-assisted
> > single op "boy and his radio" definition that quite frankly, I
> cannot
> > imagine what you guys were thinking.
> >
> > Why would you envision allowing this activity for someone who is
> supposed to
> > be doing everything without *any* outside assistance?
> >
> > Do we really need to alter what we all revere as traditional
> single op? Is
> > it necessary to let outside technology in? To what end? Why?
> >
> > We already have the Assisted or Unlimited categories that
> encompass the use
> > of all this extraneous stuff - why do we need to taint the
> traditional
> > single op category with this?
> >
> > Again, I strongly suggest that we not focus on what "assistance"
> may or may
> > not be, but instead focus on what "single operator" is and
> always has been.
> > This definition is much easier to come up with, and is extremely
> narrow in
> > scope.
> >
> > Simply, a single operator should not receive ANY information
> outside of his
> > own radio "tuning and listening" activity that occurs inside his
> head via
> > his ears.
> >
> > You ask: "At the end of the day, does it really matter whether
> they come
> > from your HF radio or the Internet"?
> >
> > My answer is an S9 +60db: YES IT MATTERS!
> >
> > Why do we need to morph single op into being the same as single
> op assisted
> > / unlimited, when we already have such categories that allow for
> all of that
> > stuff?
> >
> > The following sounds good on a first read (talking about
> defining single
> > op):
> >
> > "But with rapid evolution in technology, station architecture
> and operating
> > techniques, it has become increasingly difficult to define
> exactly what that
> > term means.
> > Again, it's better to focus on the information received and its
> impact on
> > the competition".
> >
> > I have to, once again, totally and vehemently disagree with this
> approach to
> > define single op. This is clearly the wrong approach. Defining
> single
> > operator is very easy.
> >
> > Why would a single operating be receiving any information at
> all, from
> > anywhere outside of his own direct actions, abilities and
> operating skills?
> >
> > The underlying premise is completely flawed. A single operator
> should not be
> > "receiving" *ANY* information from anywhere outside of his own
> direct
> > actions, abilities and operating skills regardless of the impact
> to the
> > competition. How did we lose this perspective?
> >
> > Again, while I truly appreciate the work done by the CAC, I
> think this
> > initiative was flawed and completely misguided.
> >
> > Bottom line: leave single op alone.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bob W5OV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
> > [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dick
> Green WC1M
> > Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 2:33 AM
> > To: sawyered at earthlink.net; cq-contest at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Aniother rules/remote RX issue
> >
> > I'm no longer on the ARRL Contest Advisory Committee, and
> certainly don't
> > speak for ARRL, but since I led the CAC's deliberations on
> Remote Operating
> > and CW Skimmer, maybe I can shed some light on the questions
> asked by Pete
> > and Igor. The ARRL rules are fairly clear on the practices Pete
> and Igor
> > describe, but it's a little more complicated than you might
> think and there
> > are some issues with the wording of the rules.
> >
> > By rule 3.7, use of a remote receiver to check for a clear
> frequency, as
> > described by Pete, is not allowed in the Single-Operator
> category under any
> > circumstances. For Single-Op Unlimited and Multi-Operator, the
> "spotting
> > network" exception in rule 3.7.2.2 applies. You could setup a remote
> > receiver and have it send Skimmer spots to the RBN. Since those
> spots are
> > available to everyone, this would be legal. But by rule 2.2.1,
> you could not
> > send audio or spots from the remote receiver over a Private internet
> > connection or phone link.
> >
> > Filtering RBN spots of your own call to evaluate propagation, as
> described
> > by Igor, is not allowed in the Single Operator category because
> by rule
> > 2.1.1 the use of "spotting assistance and nets" is prohibited.
> There's
> > actually a significant issue with the wording of this rule,
> which I'll
> > address below, but going strictly by what's published,
> Single-Ops can't do
> > it. For the Single-Operator Unlimited and Multi-Operator
> categories, the
> > exception in rule 3.7.7.2 would apply, and the practice would be
> legal as
> > long as you get the information via a publicly available
> spotting network.
> >
> > However, you can't do it with a remote receiver that you install
> and/or
> > control. That would be self-spotting, which is prohibited by
> rule 3.14.
> > Going back to Pete's question, remote receivers must filter out
> your call to
> > avoid running afoul of the rule against self-spotting.
> >
> > [Hmmm... are stations with dedicated *local* Skimmer radios that
> send spots
> > to the RBN filtering out their own calls?]
> >
> > Now for the problem with the wording of the ARRL rules:
> >
> > In 2009, the CAC studied CW Skimmer and developed clearly-worded
> changes to
> > the rules to address the technology. Those recommendations were
> accepted, in
> > their entirety, by the ARRL Programs and Services Committee, a
> sub-committee
> > of the ARRL Board of Directors. However, the wording that
> subsequently
> > appeared in the official rules does not match the CAC's
> recommendations. I
> > didn't discover that until fairly recently, and I don't know why the
> > PSC-approved recommendations weren't used when the rules were
> revised.
> > Unfortunately, the official wording is unclear and does not
> correctly
> > express the intent of the recommendations the CAC labored over
> for many
> > months. Perhaps someone at ARRL can explain how and why this
> happened.
> >
> > The problem is that the official rules do not define the terms
> "spotting
> > assistance" and "spotting nets". In contrast, the CAC report
> uses the term
> > "spotting information", defined as follows:
> >
> > "Spotting Information: Information specifying the transmit or
> receive
> > frequency and any portion of the call sign, identity, exchange
> information,
> > or location of another station with which a contest QSO could be
> made."
> >
> > In Igor's scenario, when you receive a spot of your own call,
> you are not
> > getting information about "another station with which a contest
> QSO could be
> > made." Therefore, it's not spotting information. If the CAC's
> wording for
> > the rules had been used, the practice would definitely be legal
> for all
> > categories.
> >
> > This is exactly what the CAC intended. Unlike many of the
> arguments about CW
> > Skimmer that were taking place on the cq-contest reflector at
> the time, and
> > that have been resurrected for the current debate, the CAC avoided
> > interpretation or definition of the word "assistance". As the
> public debate
> > demonstrated so well, that's a very slippery slope, especially
> when you have
> > to evaluate whether a particular technology is assistance or
> not. Instead,
> > we thought it was better to look at the issue from the point of
> view of what
> > information is being received and what impact that information
> has on
> > operating requirements and competitive factors.
> >
> > The essential point is this: tuning and listening is the heart
> and soul of
> > Single-Op. It requires a certain set of skills, strategy and
> patience. If
> > you're using information from any source outside the frequency
> to which your
> > radio is tuned to find, identify and work stations, then you
> aren't tuning
> > and listening. That represents a fundamental difference in the
> operating
> > techniques and requirements associated with the Single-Op category,
> > dramatically changes the time it takes to find and work
> stations, and thus
> > changes the competitive landscape. What's more, the result looks
> exactly
> > like what a Single-Operator Unassisted does with packet spots.
> Looks like
> > packet, smells like packet, should be treated like packet. This
> approach
> > makes it very easy to decide whether or not CW Skimmer spots
> should be
> > allowed.
> >
> > By focusing on the information and the benefit it provides, we
> avoided
> > difficult semantic arguments over the meaning of "assistance",
> whether
> > there's a difference if the source is man or machine, and whether a
> > particular technology, now or in the future, might violate the
> spirit of the
> > rules.
> >
> > So, if you look at it from that point of view, using RBN spots
> of your own
> > call to evaluate propagation doesn't fundamentally alter the key
> > differentiator of the Single-Op category: the requirement that
> you tune and
> > listen to make QSOs. Yes, the technology provides some benefit,
> but it's
> > along the same lines as using a band scope to determine if a
> band is open.
> > It's helpful, but it doesn't drastically alter the playing
> field. Yes, the
> > information comes from outside your station, but so do WWV
> reports, which
> > are perfectly legal. Are the scientists involved in those
> reports providing
> > assistance? At the end of the day, does it really matter whether
> they come
> > from your HF radio or the Internet?
> >
> > I know the CAC's approach may not be appreciated by those who
> think the
> > rules for Single-Op should be based on the simple premise of "A
> boy and his
> > radio". But with rapid evolution in technology, station
> architecture and
> > operating techniques, it has become increasingly difficult to
> define exactly
> > what that term means. Again, it's better to focus on the information
> > received and its impact on the competition.
> >
> > For those interested in the CAC's deliberations on Remote
> Operating and CW
> > Skimmer, the reports are published on the ARRL web site:
> >
> > Remote Operating
> >
> >
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/About%20ARRL/Committee%20Reports/2008/July/Do
> > c29.pdf
> >
> > CW Skimmer
> >
> >
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/About%20ARRL/Committee%20Reports/January/Doc%
> > 2029.doc
> >
> > Each of the above documents is a semi-annual report to the
> Program and
> > Services Committee on the CAC's activities, but at the end of
> the main
> > reports you will find individual reports on the CAC's
> deliberations and
> > recommendations on the two topics of interest here.
> >
> > 73, Dick WC1M
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Edward Sawyer [mailto:SawyerEd at earthlink.net]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 5:33 PM
> >> To: cq-contest at contesting.com
> >> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Aniother rules/remote RX issue
> >>
> >> The rules in CQ WW state as "call sign alerting assistance of
> any kind"
> >> and "remote receivers" are not allowed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The rules of ARRL DX state as "use of spotting assistance or
> automated,
> >> multi-channel decoders" are not allowed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Specifically, in CQ WW, I believe you would have to consider
> the RBN a
> >> form of a remote receiver and since ANY use of a remote
> receiver would
> >> look to be not allowed, I would interpret as not allowed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In ARRL DX, I believe the "multi-channel" decoder use (public or
> >> private)
> >> would be a local skimmer or public RBN. Again, for this
> reason, I
> >> would
> >> say, not allowed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> More interesting would be the use of looking up spots of yourself,
> >> especially in Phone contests. No use of remote receiver or
> decoder and
> >> no call sign alerting assistance (unless you consider your own
> call sign
> >> a call sign alert). That one seems to be squarely in the seams
> of the
> >> rules to me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The contest organizers should really keep updating the rules to
> clarify
> >> such questions as technology is evolving. It would help all of
> us "play
> >> fair"
> >> and all play off of the same play book.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Ed N1UR
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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