[CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions

cosson-dimitri cosson-dimitri at bbox.fr
Fri Aug 16 15:58:26 EDT 2019 

Hi Rya,

With all my respect, how it will be seen on a QSL (the same goes for LOTW) ?...

73 de Dimitri 



Envoyé depuis mon appareil mobile Samsung.

-------- Message d'origine --------
De : rjairam at gmail.com 
Date : 16/08/2019  18:35  (GMT+01:00) 
À : AB2E Darrell <ab2e at hotmail.com> 
Cc : David Gilbert <xdavid at cis-broadband.com>, Zack Widup <w9sz.zack at gmail.com>, CQ Contest <cq-contest at contesting.com> 
Objet : Re: [CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions 

Such QSOs will not be counted. They are likely to be flagged as invalid
under the rules.

Ria
N2RJ

On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 12:30 PM AB2E Darrell <ab2e at hotmail.com> wrote:

> There's an ad for fully automated software for ft4/8 today on one of the
> portals. It also has the warning not to be operated unattended(violation of
> FCC rules).
> So Zack and Dave, I agree with both of you, there should be a separate
> DXCC award for this mode of operating and it should not count towards
> traditional dxcc award.
> Which brings to mind a related topic, if the software makes possible
> robotic qsos from a dxpedition, should those qsos be counted as valid(if
> unattended and op watching)?
>
> 73 Darrell AB2E
> ________________________________
> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of David
> Gilbert <xdavid at cis-broadband.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 7:35:53 PM
> To: Zack Widup <w9sz.zack at gmail.com>; CQ Contest <
> cq-contest at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions
>
>
> Neither FT8 nor FT4 are fully automatic using WSJT-X or JTDX.   I'm not
> sure which app you were using (there are others), but both of those two
> require the operator to initiate each CQ and each QSO by default.  Yes,
> there are people who have written scripts to make QSOs automatic, but
> unless you were using something like that your contacts were not
> automatic.  Neither WSJT-X nor JTDX have a menu option for full
> automatic operation.
>
> And if you're trying to optimize rates in an FT4 contest, you have to be
> almost constantly doing something.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> On 8/15/2019 7:07 AM, Zack Widup wrote:
> > Some of you may have seen the postings elsewhere that ARRL will no longer
> > admit fully automatic QSO's for contest and DXCC credit (CQ's and QSO
> > initiation are fully automatic, with no operator intervention). I am
> > guessing this primarily affects FT8 operation. I have not operated much
> FT8
> > but the operation I did was fully automatic. I am guessing there is a way
> > to set it to semi-automatic operation (a real operator initiates each CQ
> > and each QSO) (which is a valid QSO for those awards). And I don't know
> how
> > how they would tell. But the ruling stands.
> >
> > 73, Zack W9SZ
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:08 AM robert <wa1fcn at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> >>       GM Matts/Yuri
> >>
> >>           I agree with you about the ARRL's DXCC credit system.
> >>
> >>           A mistake for sure.  As a life long low power operator it has
> >>
> >>           taken me 54 years to reach 40 meter DXCC of 280.  By allowing
> >>
> >>           FT8 credits mixed  in with every thing I foresee in the near
> >> future,
> >>
> >>           many achieving  this in 10 years  or less of effort.   At the
> >> next sun spot
> >>
> >>           cycle peak high DXCC totals on 10,  12, and 15 will be
> >> meaningless. I
> >>
> >>           know of  hams who no longer take part in DXCC for just this
> >> reason.
> >>
> >>           FT8 credit for DXCC is fine, but keep it separated from single
> >> band/mixed
> >>
> >>           mode totals.
> >>
> >>                   74 BoB WA1FCN
> >>
> >> On 8/15/2019 1:30 AM, Mats Strandberg wrote:
> >>> I tend to agree with Yury.
> >>>
> >>> CY9 was much more balanced between modes, than the 3D2 (or least that
> was
> >>> my perception).
> >>>
> >>> It might be so that at the time of John’s (GD) participation in KP5 and
> >>> KP1, that there was no ambition to maximize the revenue through
> donations
> >>> (before, during and after the expedition). I don’t question that.
> >>>
> >>> However, since FT8 appeared as an equal mode for DXCC (along with
> CW,SSB
> >>> and RTTY), it definitely has changed some expeditions into becoming
> >>> automated QSO/QSL-creating machines...
> >>>
> >>> John, during KP1/KP5, the FT modes were not available, so comparison
> >> might
> >>> not be fully relevant.
> >>>
> >>> It is maybe good that FT8 will bring new “DXers” to the table, but the
> >>> appearance of this dull mode... has forever changed the feeling of
> “being
> >>> on the other side of the expedition”, and most likely also, being an
> >>> operator of that expedition as well.
> >>>
> >>> I question myself, what is the pleasure of being that rare DX, giving
> out
> >>> the ATNOs and the new band points, when the reality is that NO operator
> >>> skills are required from me to make those “contacts” happen!
> >>>
> >>> Before, good DX-expeditions we’re separated by less good ones, because
> of
> >>> operator skills. How wonderful was it not to listen to great operators,
> >>> handling thousand of callers, to maximize the number of contacts and
> >> happy
> >>> DXers on the other side?
> >>>
> >>> Those days were interesting and a memory of our past. The new FT8
> >> euphoria
> >>> has forever changed the perception of DX-big, thanks to ARRL’s greed
> for
> >>> award revenue ;(
> >>>
> >>> And, what we now see is the result of the wrong decision to equalize
> FTx,
> >>> JT and other artificial modes, with RTTY, SSB and CW, and accept them
> for
> >>> DXCC Mixed.
> >>>
> >>> The correct way would have been to create FT/JT DXCC separate from
> >> Classic
> >>> DXCC...
> >>>
> >>> DXCC as we all knew it, has been hurt tremendously by ARRL unthoughtful
> >>> decision to accept FT/JT in Mixed!
> >>>
> >>> 73 de RM2D (Mats)
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 05:14, John Crovelli <w2gd at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I want to take a moment to dispel the notion suggested by Yuri that
> >>>> DXpedition operating strategy is all about financial considerations.
> It
> >>>> simply isn't for well planned operations.
> >>>>
> >>>> It is the intent of virtually every DXpedition to provide an
> opportunity
> >>>> for those running 100 watts or more to work an ATNO.  DXpeditions
> teams
> >> are
> >>>> constantly considering ways to reach the broadest possible audience
> >> while
> >>>> on site.
> >>>>
> >>>> The implication that operating strategy and mode selection is all
> about
> >>>> post operation donations (to cover costs) is just not true.  Well
> >> organized
> >>>> teams have these issues resolved well in advance.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've been on some large DXpeditions (KP5 and KP1 - both were top ten
> >>>> world).  Our operating teams NEVER set goals based upon donations, and
> >> in
> >>>> fact, this issue was never even discussed since no one felt it to be
> >>>> important.  Again, financing issues were resolved well before we ever
> >>>> departed for the islands.
> >>>>
> >>>> We did however (on a daily basis) take stock of propagation, probably
> of
> >>>> openings, and how we were providing global coverage ... to prevent
> >> missing
> >>>> opportunities to those regions traditionally most difficult.  As a
> tool,
> >>>> FT8 can be useful.
> >>>>
> >>>> FT8 modes are providing options not previously available and for the
> >> most
> >>>> part now replaces RTTY activity.   It is my expectation CW and SSB
> will
> >>>> always be the main modes for DXpeditions.
> >>>>
> >>>> John, W2GD aka P40W/P44W
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of
> Yuri
> >> <
> >>>> ve3dz at rigexpert.net>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 4:57 PM
> >>>> To: 'Jeff Clarke' <ku8e at ku8e.com>; cq-contest at contesting.com <
> >>>> cq-contest at contesting.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are putting
> FT8
> >>>> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this isn't the
> >>>> future of ham radio.
> >>>>
> >>>> I might not be politically correct, but why not to mention that one of
> >> the
> >>>> all of the DXpeditions' goals is to try to maximize the overall QSO
> >> count
> >>>> in order to get more donation? That's what hiding behind "best kept
> >> secret"
> >>>> (that everybody knows) of F/H mode in FT8 in my opinion.
> >>>> I'm not saying it's bad or good, but it's a fact.
> >>>> Multi-channel streams need to be prohibited, otherwise it looks like
> >>>> hypocrisy.
> >>>> I still remember how the rules for M/S in the ARRL Contests were
> changed
> >>>> under the pressure after PJ4G(?) team managed to have 2 stations on
> the
> >>>> same band (even not at the same time).
> >>>>
> >>>> Yuri VE3DZ
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf
> >> Of
> >>>> Jeff Clarke
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 10:51 AM
> >>>> To: cq-contest at contesting.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification
> >>>>
> >>>> Didn't someone create a FT8 contest reflector? It would be nice to
> take
> >>>> all these comments over there. Seems like FT8 is monopolizing the
> >> contest
> >>>> reflector just like it is on the air.
> >>>>
> >>>> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are putting FT8
> >>>> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this isn't the
> >>>> future of ham radio.
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW I do operate some FT8 because I'm working on a the digital DXCC.
> >>>> (because there is hardly any RTTY activity outside of contests) Now
> that
> >>>> I've reached 100 countries I'm starting to get bored with it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeff
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
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