[CQ-Contest] WRTC Spotting

[robert beaudoin]

     Good Afternoon Stan and All

             I do use On-Line Scoarboard tho not in every contest.  It 
has it's pros and cons.

                 There have been a couple times where it totally 
DEmotivated me.  I was too discouraged

         to see so many ahead of me.  There were other cases of it 
having no negative effect on

         me.  I have gotten into some fun with a couple guys in my same 
category going back

         and forth with score leading.  In IARU contest this year I 
decided to not post to

         scoreboard only because I wanted no distractions.  As it turned 
out it was my best

         performance ever.  I know propagation was the main reason for 
that tho......still.

                     BoB WA1FCN


On 7/2/2023 7:21 PM, Stan Zawrotny wrote:
> Operating in a contest is like running a race. Would you want to run the
> race blindfolded, which is exactly how we run contests without scoreboards.
> In running a race, I would like to know if someone is just ahead of me, so
> that I can try harder to pass them. Likewise, I would like to know if
> someone is making a run to pass me.
>
> Yes, the more skilled ops will gain tactical information, but so will
> everyone. Scoreboards may add another facet to the game, but everyone will
> gain. Everyone will learn how to use the new information -- if you don't,
> then you don't deserve to be in the top scorers. But even if you are in the
> second tier of competitors who contest for the fun of it, then you will
> have more fun because you can witness the competition.
>
> Scoreboards add excitement to the radiosport. That excitement may attract
> more competitors from the younger generations.
>
> I'm tired of running the event blindfolded.
>
>
> __________
> Stan, K4SBZ
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 2:21 PM <kq2m at kq2m.com> wrote:
>
>> Scoreboards provide a multitude of information and different ops use
>> that info in different ways to different effects.  The score at any
>> given point basically tells you who is ahead or behind in aggregate; it
>> is a snapshot of what has already happened and on what bands the op made
>> it happen; however, watching for CHANGES in the band by band breakdown
>> tells you where those changes in score are happening NOW which is very
>> valuable info if the op knows how to use that effectively, and clearly
>> not the same thing as DX Cluster spots which give away the freq and time
>> of the spotted stations.
>>
>> Neither of these is even remotely the same thing as monitoring Solar WX
>> websites which provide info on what the Sun and Ionosphere/Earth's
>> magnetic field are doing or have already done, and provide ZERO
>> information about what actual stations operating in the contest are
>> doing or have already done.  I also monitor Doppler radar so that I can
>> see what the weather is doing or might do - which is a primarily a
>> matter of operator safety especially with T-storms.  I use these
>> resources as real-time operating aids, but NONE of this information is
>> generated by any operators in the contest and it does not give frequency
>> location of any station in the contest, hence does NOT provide any
>> assistance for the single-op.  Why any contest committee member might
>> see this as comparable to DX Cluster or skimmer, or providing assistance
>> (facilitating making contest qso's) to the NON-Assisted opr., is beyond
>> me.
>>
>> Then there is the practice of some stations/operators posting real-time
>> audio/video streams of themselves operating during a contest.  Is that a
>> form of assistance and facilitating making qso's if the op is
>> NON-Assisted?  A form of self-spotting perhaps?  Part of the answer to
>> that depends on how the op uses that technology to display and promote
>> their operation in real-time and what information is being broadcast to
>> viewers/listeners.  Some of these ops are/were more careful than others
>> about doing that.
>>
>> I can see how "drawing a box" around the station and eliminating use of
>> the internet might be one way of dealing with issues that facilitate
>> operators making contest qso's, but IMO it would be like using a
>> blowtorch to kill a fly; one which would make operators "blind" to
>> potentially dangerous weather hazards, and also eliminate the use of the
>> internet for non-contest purposes like watching TV, checking email etc.
>> It would also effectively eliminate remote operating which is internet
>> based, unless an exception for that mode of operating was granted.
>>
>> I disagree with Randy though as far as whether or not it is "too late".
>> As contest directors and managers have repeatedly demonstrated over the
>> past decade, decisions on categories, rule-changes and
>> re-characterizations are often made quickly and without regard to what
>> the majority of contest participants think or want.
>>
>> Bob, KQ2M
>>
>>
>> On 2023-07-01 22:10, Randy Thompson wrote:
>>> Scoreboards provide one very real value to operators - the opportunity
>>> to know how their competition is doing for score.  Contesting used to
>>> be 'man isolated in basement' vs his own mental fortitude to persevere.
>>>   You had to be self motivated because you had no idea how others were
>>> doing. The scoreboards now give you a view of how the other racers are
>>> doing and can provide motivation to keep pushing whether you are ahead
>>> or behind.  They are even more valuable during part time efforts, where
>>> you sit down for awhile and can compete against the other scores around
>>> yours.
>>>
>>> Scoreboards are not even close to the value of looking at the DX
>>> cluster in terms of knowing what bands are open, to where, and who is
>>> on.  If you have time to look at the detailed breakdowns in real-time
>>> from a scoreboard, you wouldn't know very much and probably aren't
>>> winning anyway.
>>>
>>> As for the contest committee rule making...  yes.  The focus was all
>>> about the new Packet thing on VHF and the value of getting real-time
>>> spots.  The assisted rules were written around the concept of station
>>> finding consisting of a callsign and frequency.  As the Internet
>>> quickly took over, we suddenly found there were many other information
>>> sources that should have been included.  Watching the solar weather
>>> forecast (something I know you do as a SO) is an example.  If we were
>>> writing the rule today we would probably draw a box around the station
>>> and allow Internet and skimmer tools, or we would allow nothing.  Too
>>> late.
>>>
>>> Things do keep changing.  Self-spotting is a whole new can of worms,
>>> but also looks like it will be with us going forward thanks to ARRL.
>>>
>>> Randy K5ZD
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces+k5zd=outlook.com at contesting.com>
>>> On Behalf Of kq2m at kq2m.com
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:30 AM
>>> To: Mike Fatchett W0MU <w0mu at w0mu.com>
>>> Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Spotting
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Scoreboards are informative and fun to watch, and this usefulness
>>> brings about my main objection to their use being allowed by the
>>> NON-Assisted ops; that watching a scoreboard provides valuable
>>> information about band openings, rate and what is likely being worked
>>> on the band(s), by whom and when.  In some ways scoreboard info can be
>>> even more useful than actually viewing DX cluster spots which only tell
>>> you what is being spotted and by whom, not who/what is actually being
>>> worked in real-time.
>>>    I believe that use of the Scoreboard constitutes Assisted operating
>>> since this real-time information is provided by others DURING the
>>> contest.
>>>
>>> For these reasons I personally do not look at scoreboards when I am
>>> operating NON-Assisted, regardless of whether or not the SOABHP
>>> category allows it.  I believe that the contest committees seriously
>>> erred many years ago when they gave their blessing to scoreboard use by
>>> the _NON-Assisted_ ops along with several other forms of real-time
>>> technology including skimmer.
>>>
>>> Why Mike and others feel the need to "get everyone to use scoreboards"
>>> is baffling to me.  Why not get others to develop and improve their
>>> OPERATING SKILLS instead?
>>>
>>> And, NO, there are many among us who DON'T "accept automatic spotting
>>> on every mode"; rather, we have learned to live with it because we have
>>> no control over it and have not been left with a viable alternative
>>> except not to operate.
>>>
>>> Regarding SSB spotting in WRTC, I can see both the pros and cons of
>>> doing this and the strong opinions already expressed.  Each WRTC
>>> committee is charged with making their own rules and each WRTC event
>>> has introduced new ideas and competition "tweaks" to experiment with
>>> them.
>>> Some have been great and others not, but it is part of the ongoing
>>> evolution of WRTC (just as in the Olympics) and it will be interesting
>>> to see how this hybrid form of SSB spotting turns out.
>>>
>>> Both WRTC and technology sure have changed a lot since the
>>> groundbreaking event took place in Seattle, WA, some 33 years ago.  It
>>> is still one of the highlights of my life!
>>>
>>> I wish the 2022 WRTC Committee and all judges, support people,
>>> participants and competitors, a most awesome and wonderful event!
>>>
>>> CU in IARUHF!
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Bob, KQ2M
>>>
>>> In 2023-06-30 18:13, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see much of an issue.  CW spots are automatic with RBN and
>>>> skimmer.  Why not SSB spots?  IARU could change their rules. Same for
>>>> any other contest.    Maybe this is how we get everyone to use
>>>> scoreboards.  If you use the scoreboards you get spotted on SSB.
>>>>
>>>> We accept automatic spotting on every mode but SSB simple because we
>>>> don't have a good way to do it.  Maybe this changes that......
>>>>
>>>> W0MU
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