[CQ-Contest] WRTC Spotting

[Pete Smith N4ZR]

please, do us all a favor and change the subject when it is no longer 
relevant.

73, Pete N4ZR

On 7/19/2023 2:04 PM, robert beaudoin wrote:
>
>     Good Afternoon Stan and All
>
>             I do use On-Line Scoarboard tho not in every contest. It 
> has it's pros and cons.
>
>                 There have been a couple times where it totally 
> DEmotivated me.  I was too discouraged
>
>         to see so many ahead of me.  There were other cases of it 
> having no negative effect on
>
>         me.  I have gotten into some fun with a couple guys in my same 
> category going back
>
>         and forth with score leading.  In IARU contest this year I 
> decided to not post to
>
>         scoreboard only because I wanted no distractions.  As it 
> turned out it was my best
>
>         performance ever.  I know propagation was the main reason for 
> that tho......still.
>
>                     BoB WA1FCN
>
>
> On 7/2/2023 7:21 PM, Stan Zawrotny wrote:
>> Operating in a contest is like running a race. Would you want to run the
>> race blindfolded, which is exactly how we run contests without 
>> scoreboards.
>> In running a race, I would like to know if someone is just ahead of 
>> me, so
>> that I can try harder to pass them. Likewise, I would like to know if
>> someone is making a run to pass me.
>>
>> Yes, the more skilled ops will gain tactical information, but so will
>> everyone. Scoreboards may add another facet to the game, but everyone 
>> will
>> gain. Everyone will learn how to use the new information -- if you 
>> don't,
>> then you don't deserve to be in the top scorers. But even if you are 
>> in the
>> second tier of competitors who contest for the fun of it, then you will
>> have more fun because you can witness the competition.
>>
>> Scoreboards add excitement to the radiosport. That excitement may 
>> attract
>> more competitors from the younger generations.
>>
>> I'm tired of running the event blindfolded.
>>
>>
>> __________
>> Stan, K4SBZ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 2:21 PM <kq2m at kq2m.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Scoreboards provide a multitude of information and different ops use
>>> that info in different ways to different effects.  The score at any
>>> given point basically tells you who is ahead or behind in aggregate; it
>>> is a snapshot of what has already happened and on what bands the op 
>>> made
>>> it happen; however, watching for CHANGES in the band by band breakdown
>>> tells you where those changes in score are happening NOW which is very
>>> valuable info if the op knows how to use that effectively, and clearly
>>> not the same thing as DX Cluster spots which give away the freq and 
>>> time
>>> of the spotted stations.
>>>
>>> Neither of these is even remotely the same thing as monitoring Solar WX
>>> websites which provide info on what the Sun and Ionosphere/Earth's
>>> magnetic field are doing or have already done, and provide ZERO
>>> information about what actual stations operating in the contest are
>>> doing or have already done.  I also monitor Doppler radar so that I can
>>> see what the weather is doing or might do - which is a primarily a
>>> matter of operator safety especially with T-storms.  I use these
>>> resources as real-time operating aids, but NONE of this information is
>>> generated by any operators in the contest and it does not give 
>>> frequency
>>> location of any station in the contest, hence does NOT provide any
>>> assistance for the single-op.  Why any contest committee member might
>>> see this as comparable to DX Cluster or skimmer, or providing 
>>> assistance
>>> (facilitating making contest qso's) to the NON-Assisted opr., is beyond
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Then there is the practice of some stations/operators posting real-time
>>> audio/video streams of themselves operating during a contest. Is that a
>>> form of assistance and facilitating making qso's if the op is
>>> NON-Assisted?  A form of self-spotting perhaps?  Part of the answer to
>>> that depends on how the op uses that technology to display and promote
>>> their operation in real-time and what information is being broadcast to
>>> viewers/listeners.  Some of these ops are/were more careful than others
>>> about doing that.
>>>
>>> I can see how "drawing a box" around the station and eliminating use of
>>> the internet might be one way of dealing with issues that facilitate
>>> operators making contest qso's, but IMO it would be like using a
>>> blowtorch to kill a fly; one which would make operators "blind" to
>>> potentially dangerous weather hazards, and also eliminate the use of 
>>> the
>>> internet for non-contest purposes like watching TV, checking email etc.
>>> It would also effectively eliminate remote operating which is internet
>>> based, unless an exception for that mode of operating was granted.
>>>
>>> I disagree with Randy though as far as whether or not it is "too late".
>>> As contest directors and managers have repeatedly demonstrated over the
>>> past decade, decisions on categories, rule-changes and
>>> re-characterizations are often made quickly and without regard to what
>>> the majority of contest participants think or want.
>>>
>>> Bob, KQ2M
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2023-07-01 22:10, Randy Thompson wrote:
>>>> Scoreboards provide one very real value to operators - the opportunity
>>>> to know how their competition is doing for score. Contesting used to
>>>> be 'man isolated in basement' vs his own mental fortitude to 
>>>> persevere.
>>>>   You had to be self motivated because you had no idea how others were
>>>> doing. The scoreboards now give you a view of how the other racers are
>>>> doing and can provide motivation to keep pushing whether you are ahead
>>>> or behind.  They are even more valuable during part time efforts, 
>>>> where
>>>> you sit down for awhile and can compete against the other scores 
>>>> around
>>>> yours.
>>>>
>>>> Scoreboards are not even close to the value of looking at the DX
>>>> cluster in terms of knowing what bands are open, to where, and who is
>>>> on.  If you have time to look at the detailed breakdowns in real-time
>>>> from a scoreboard, you wouldn't know very much and probably aren't
>>>> winning anyway.
>>>>
>>>> As for the contest committee rule making...  yes.  The focus was all
>>>> about the new Packet thing on VHF and the value of getting real-time
>>>> spots.  The assisted rules were written around the concept of station
>>>> finding consisting of a callsign and frequency.  As the Internet
>>>> quickly took over, we suddenly found there were many other information
>>>> sources that should have been included.  Watching the solar weather
>>>> forecast (something I know you do as a SO) is an example. If we were
>>>> writing the rule today we would probably draw a box around the station
>>>> and allow Internet and skimmer tools, or we would allow nothing.  Too
>>>> late.
>>>>
>>>> Things do keep changing.  Self-spotting is a whole new can of worms,
>>>> but also looks like it will be with us going forward thanks to ARRL.
>>>>
>>>> Randy K5ZD
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces+k5zd=outlook.com at contesting.com>
>>>> On Behalf Of kq2m at kq2m.com
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:30 AM
>>>> To: Mike Fatchett W0MU <w0mu at w0mu.com>
>>>> Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Spotting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scoreboards are informative and fun to watch, and this usefulness
>>>> brings about my main objection to their use being allowed by the
>>>> NON-Assisted ops; that watching a scoreboard provides valuable
>>>> information about band openings, rate and what is likely being worked
>>>> on the band(s), by whom and when.  In some ways scoreboard info can be
>>>> even more useful than actually viewing DX cluster spots which only 
>>>> tell
>>>> you what is being spotted and by whom, not who/what is actually being
>>>> worked in real-time.
>>>>    I believe that use of the Scoreboard constitutes Assisted operating
>>>> since this real-time information is provided by others DURING the
>>>> contest.
>>>>
>>>> For these reasons I personally do not look at scoreboards when I am
>>>> operating NON-Assisted, regardless of whether or not the SOABHP
>>>> category allows it.  I believe that the contest committees seriously
>>>> erred many years ago when they gave their blessing to scoreboard 
>>>> use by
>>>> the _NON-Assisted_ ops along with several other forms of real-time
>>>> technology including skimmer.
>>>>
>>>> Why Mike and others feel the need to "get everyone to use scoreboards"
>>>> is baffling to me.  Why not get others to develop and improve their
>>>> OPERATING SKILLS instead?
>>>>
>>>> And, NO, there are many among us who DON'T "accept automatic spotting
>>>> on every mode"; rather, we have learned to live with it because we 
>>>> have
>>>> no control over it and have not been left with a viable alternative
>>>> except not to operate.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding SSB spotting in WRTC, I can see both the pros and cons of
>>>> doing this and the strong opinions already expressed.  Each WRTC
>>>> committee is charged with making their own rules and each WRTC event
>>>> has introduced new ideas and competition "tweaks" to experiment with
>>>> them.
>>>> Some have been great and others not, but it is part of the ongoing
>>>> evolution of WRTC (just as in the Olympics) and it will be interesting
>>>> to see how this hybrid form of SSB spotting turns out.
>>>>
>>>> Both WRTC and technology sure have changed a lot since the
>>>> groundbreaking event took place in Seattle, WA, some 33 years ago.  It
>>>> is still one of the highlights of my life!
>>>>
>>>> I wish the 2022 WRTC Committee and all judges, support people,
>>>> participants and competitors, a most awesome and wonderful event!
>>>>
>>>> CU in IARUHF!
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>>
>>>> Bob, KQ2M
>>>>
>>>> In 2023-06-30 18:13, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't see much of an issue.  CW spots are automatic with RBN and
>>>>> skimmer.  Why not SSB spots?  IARU could change their rules. Same for
>>>>> any other contest.    Maybe this is how we get everyone to use
>>>>> scoreboards.  If you use the scoreboards you get spotted on SSB.
>>>>>
>>>>> We accept automatic spotting on every mode but SSB simple because we
>>>>> don't have a good way to do it.  Maybe this changes that......
>>>>>
>>>>> W0MU
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