[CQ-Contest] WRTC Countdown Is On (K3ZJ

[Steve London]

That falls in the same category as luck-of-the-draw in site selection.

73,
Steve, N2IC

On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 12:47 PM Ed Parish <k1ep.list at gmail.com> wrote:

> So here is my question. Not based on the ethics of this spotting but on
> real life. We all know that fully automated systems sometimes run into
> problems. A bad wifi link, a computer crash, etc. What happens when you
> don't have the real time data from one of the competitors? Are rhey not
> getting real time spots, but every one else is?  Do you shut down the
> system until you are certain everyone is "online"? Is there a manual backup
> and does that work if communications are down to a particular site?
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 19:01 Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for this information Fabio.  So essentially because the logs are
> > real time into the central system you are creating an SSB skimmer, not by
> > pulling signals off the air like CW Skimmer but by monitoring Qs logged
> on
> > a specific frequency.  While it may “level the playing field” in WRTC, it
> > is completely against the rules in IARU Championship for which the rest
> of
> > the world is participating and competing.  It also greatly increases the
> > SSB efficiency of WRTC competitors vs non-WRTC competitors.  Affecting
> > everybody’s scores even though not competing directly with each other.
> >
> > The WRTC is happening simultaneously with IARU.  Never before, to my
> > knowledge, has a WRTC rule or process, influenced the overall contest for
> > others in the contest.  It is after all the IARU Contest that is the norm
> > here, not WRTC.
> >
> > I would ask the committee to rescind this clearly unallowed process in
> the
> > IARU Contest.
> >
> > Thank you for your consideration of the rest of the contesting community.
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
> >
> > From: Fabio Schettino <fabio.e.schettino at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2023 3:42 PM
> > To: Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>
> > Cc: Jack Brindle <jackbrindle at me.com>; cq-contest at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Countdown Is On (K3ZJ
> >
> >
> > Hi Fellow
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately we are too busy to follow these aseptic threads based on
> > incomplete and wrong information.
> >
> >
> >
> > We will never scan the band looking for SSB WRTC stations, but we have
> > developed a complete set of new tools that analyze the log in real time,
> >
> > to discover possible cheerleading activity.
> >
> >
> >
> >  In the meantime we introduced an automatic spot generator that sends
> only
> > ONE spot after a band or mode change and three logged QSOs,
> >
> > addressing the issue of excessive spotting often associated with
> > CWskimmer. This approach helps prevent unfair  advantages and ensures
> >
> > that SSB QSYs are also appropriately spotted. These decisions have been
> > taken to steps up the level of the playing field for all participants.
> >
> >
> >
> > The development of these tools involved analyzing various factors,
> > including QSO patterns, QSOs from the same operator entity,
> >
> > spot/log cross-checking, and leveraging AI techniques learned from years
> > of Contesting and analyzing a vast number of Contest logs.
> >
> > This comprehensive approach demonstrates our commitment to improving the
> > reliability and fairness of WRTC competitions.
> >
> >
> >
> > By implementing real-time log checks with these advanced tools, we hope
> to
> > taking a significant step forward in ensuring the
> >
> > fairest competition possible for WRTC, we hope that this impressive
> > accomplishment should be a positive development for the future of the
> event.
> >
> > See u in a couple of weeks
> >
> > 73 de Fabio I4UFH
> >
> > WRTC 2022 Vice President
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Il giorno mer 28 giu 2023 alle ore 03:44 Edward Sawyer <
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>
> > ha scritto:
> > Jack – its worse than that actually.  The organizers will apparently scan
> > the bands for SSB signals and spot them for the competitors.  Kind of
> like
> > a manual SSB CW skimmer…
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
> >
> > From: Jack Brindle <jackbrindle at me.com<mailto:jackbrindle at me.com>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 4:30 PM
> > To: Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>
> > Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Countdown Is On (K3ZJ
> >
> > Ed;
> >
> > It appears that you are saying that self-spotting is allowed for the WRTC
> > participants. Where do you get this? The Competition Rules at
> > https://www.wrtc2022.it/en/competition-rules-29.asp seem to explicitly
> > outlaw this. What are we missing?
> >
> > 73,
> > Jack, W6FB
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jun 27, 2023, at 1:58 PM, Edward Sawyer <
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > ><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry but activating a callsign block is not the same as broadcasting
> them
> > continually over the cluster when no one else can do it.
> >
> > Such decisions should not even be the sole responsibility of WRTC – they
> > should be overlaying passively – not hijacking.
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
> >
> > From: Richard F DiDonna NN3W <richnn3w at gmail.com<mailto:
> richnn3w at gmail.com
> > ><mailto:richnn3w at gmail.com<mailto:richnn3w at gmail.com>>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 2:54 PM
> > To: Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > <mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>>
> > Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com><mailto:
> > cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Countdown Is On (K3ZJ
> >
> > Kind of like how using a callsign block that had not been activated in
> > nearly 30 years was re-opened up just for WRTC?  Nobody complained an
> ounce
> > then - in fact it was lauded.  That certainly detracted from working
> other
> > stations.
> >
> > 73 Rich NN3W
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 2:16 PM Edward Sawyer <
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > ><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > <mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>> wrote:
> > Hi Rich.  However, you are affecting the scores of other participants by
> > pulling Qs away with a tool that is not allowed by others.  As an
> example,
> > if a record was possible, and scores are lower, this is an unacceptable
> > outcome for a group hijacking a contest.  No longer overlaying, but
> > selfishly influencing.  Its just not acceptable in my opinion.
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
> >
> > From: Richard F DiDonna NN3W <richnn3w at gmail.com<mailto:
> richnn3w at gmail.com
> > ><mailto:richnn3w at gmail.com<mailto:richnn3w at gmail.com>><mailto:
> > richnn3w at gmail.com<mailto:richnn3w at gmail.com>>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 2:13 PM
> > To: Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > <mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>><mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> >>>
> > Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com><mailto:
> > cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>><mailto:
> > cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Countdown Is On (K3ZJ
> >
> > I mean we're only competing with ourselves within the shell of the IARU
> > contest so I don't see what the big deal is.  We're scored differently,
> > we're categorized differently, etc.
> >
> > 73 Rich NN3W
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 1:30 PM Edward Sawyer <
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > ><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com<mailto:
> > EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>><mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com
> > <mailto:EdwardS at advanced-conversion.com>>> wrote:
> > Thanks for this interesting info.  There has been virtually nothing
> > relayed by the WRTC Committee to the outside world on what is going to
> > happen there.  No site information and obviously no mention of drastic
> > inclusions like patronage self-spotting.
> >
> > Personally, I think that self-spotting on SSB (which in my opinion is
> > seriously wrong to hijack an on-going contest in this way) when no one
> else
> > competing can do so within the rules, is completely out of bounds.  To
> > "overlay yourself" onto a competition for another purpose is one thing -
> > which I have no objection to.  However, to actually then introduce
> > interaction which will PULL Qs from the normal contest participants in
> > favor of your overlay is unsportsmanlike and unethical.
> >
> > This is a serious mistake in my opinion and a very dangerous precedent
> > being set.  I implore the WRTC group to not do this.  Even the HQ
> stations
> > are not allowed to self-spot in this contest.
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
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