[RFI] LED Bulbs

[Roger Shultz]

Ed et al,

I can confirm that diplomacy is key to resolution. Just this week I was able
to clear a S9+20 case of RFI into my 2 meter terrestrial and EME station
that rendered it useless. The cause was 9 LED MR-16 lamps in a neighbor's
kitchen that were installed 2 months ago.

Because it first sounded like power line AC buzz, I contacted the local
power company PSEG who were quite responsive but because the RFI was
intermittent didn't see it on their first trip however they saw other AC
problems and took care of them! I had noticed that I didn't seem to have
this AC buzz on the HF bands but it didn't ring a bell that it was quite
different.

On the second trip from PSEG, I met with the PSEG engineer and confirmed
that the RFI/buzz was near the pole I had first identified after a walk
around with a 2 meter HT in AM mode. Because it was centered at 145 MHz
suspicion that it might be Comcast channel 18 arose because PSEG noticed
that it was wideband and a good 20 MHz wide. It was only then that I
connected my spectrum analyzer to the antenna and became immediately shocked
at what I saw.

PSEG contacted Comcast who had a smart and skilled tech out within a day. We
met and discussed what I was seeing but came to the conclusion that it was
not Comcast.

I then took a 4 element yagi to where I knew the signal was hottest and did
some direction finding. To my surprise, the signal peaked away from the
power and cable lines but to the interior of the closest house. I went on
all three sides that I could access and it was clear as to the direction.

I did not know the residents even though they were no more than 700 feet
from my QTH, but I took a chance and knocked on the door. The lady who lives
there had seen PSEG and Comcast and wondered what was going on. I explained
what I was seeing and that it had started in Mid-December and wondered if
that rang a bell. It didn't but she invited me in to "snoop" however though
I could clearly hear the noise, it was so loud it couldn't be traced to any
TV or computer. 

A few days later, I noticed that the RFI was gone and wondered if the
residents were home so I drove by and sure enough they were gone. This
pretty much confirmed that it was from that QTH. 

I was fortunate that though I didn't know the resident, she knew my kids, so
we had a connection. She later stopped by when I was in my driveway to chat
about the possibilities and what the next steps might be. I obtained her
phone number and when I next saw it I called her. I told her that I wanted
to arrange a breaker off test to isolate what was the source. She told me
that she would do it right away then. After the 5 th circuit breaker she got
the right one! She immediately knew what it was and advised me it was her
kitchen lights and that they had been installed in mid-December. Luck
prevailed because she told me she didn't like the LED lights anyway because
of the color. I immediately offered to buy replacement halogen bulbs and
install them since she said she was afraid to do so. That was completed on
Tuesday and the RFI is GONE!

Admittedly I was lucky. I did explain about FCC radiation limits and that
the responsibility fell to her to fix it. As expected she had a hard time
accepting this reality and there was no point to push it at this stage. It
cost me a mere $40 for the bulbs and it was well worth it.

I borrowed three LED bulbs, brought them home and ran a test with a
transformer based 115 to 12 Vac variable resistive unit and the RFI was
quite apparent at a -40 DBM for just one bulb. Adding a 25 foot extension
cord to emulate the effects of a Romex run to the panel acted as an antenna
and the signal increased significantly . The RFI extended from 50 MHz to
over 350 MHz! These were Eco-Smart LED bulbs sold by Home Depot and listed
by ETL, a UL type testing company but with no FCC notation. I've sent a bulb
to Mike Gruber of the ARRL for further testing. Mike wrote an excellent
article on LED bulbs in October 2013 QST but didn't have any that were
generating RFI at VHF.

I hope my story puts some perspective on how these cases can be handled
without FCC involvement. Had my neighbor not been so incredibly smart and
cooperative, I would have filed a complaint and waited until I heard back
from them.

I don't want to infer that all LED bulbs are bad because they are not. If
that was the case the 800 LED C-9 style bulbs we install on our 50 foot
Norwegian Spruce would have been a problem and they are DFQ.

I had a funny thought that it is now "our turn" to be interfered with
compared to in the 1940's to early 80's when many people got their TV off
the air and we frequently bothered their TV "hobby". When the migration to
cable came to pass, we were off the hook it seemed. They had as much right
to expect peaceful TV watching as we hope to have with our radios in an era
of hundreds of RFI generating devices!

73, Roger, NJ2R



-----Original Message-----
From: RFI [mailto:rfi-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of EDWARDS, EDDIE J
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 2:03 PM
To: 'Dale J.'
Cc: RFI Reflector
Subject: Re: [RFI] LED Bulbs

Dale, 

You may need to look at it a little differently.  You are missing an
opportunity to establishing a good working relationship where you are they
technical guy who can "help" your neighbor resolve any problem without
getting any FCC direct involvement other than receiving the final complaint
against the problem devices (not your neighbor).  

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf 

"Personalities
You can't overestimate the importance of personal diplomacy when you're
trying to solve a
problem that involves two or more people! The way you react and behave when
you first
discuss the problem with other individuals, such as a neighbor, utility or
cable company, or
manufacturer, can set the tone for everything that follows. Everyone who is
involved in an
interference problem should remember that the best solutions are built on
cooperation and
trust. This is a view shared by electronic equipment manufacturers, the
Federal
Communications Commission (FCC) and the American Radio Relay League (ARRL)."

73, de ed -K0iL

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale J. [mailto:dj2001x at comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:33 PM
To: EDWARDS, EDDIE J
Cc: RFI Reflector 
Subject: Re: [RFI] LED Bulbs

Yeah, the only problem I see with that, contacting the FCC, is it pits me
against my neighbor and I don't like that, nor should it be that way.  The
end user should not get the blame.  The mfg of the crap should, and the
overseeing agency should get on the stick!!

Dale, K9VUJ


On 13, Feb 2014, at 11:18, "EDWARDS, EDDIE J" <eedwards at oppd.com> wrote:

> Dale, 
> 
> I agree with "squeaky wheels get the grease".  That's why most posts are
saying it's important to call or file RFI complaints with the neighbor
first, then the FCC, ARRL, CPSC, NCIS or any other acronym agency that you
think might be interested.  If the FCC doesn't get any complaints, then
there is no RFI problem to address.  A ham with a noisy TV next door and has
not filed a complaint simply proves there is no real RFI problem.
> 
> From all the links provided during this discussion, it looks like squeaky
complainers are getting action.  On the power line noise side of things, I
know firsthand that FCC complaints result in FCC letters to CEOs, and CEOs
don't like to get letters from the federal government.  The result is
immediate action and resolution of RFI problems.  
> 
> On the consumer product side, it's more complicated, but many do get some
resolution eventually.  We deserve inaction if that's all that we provide. 
> 
> I get the feeling from Dale J's posts he wants more testing for better
filtering.  But testing by who?  The FCC?  3rd party contractors?  And how
much testing?  Random, continuous, or 100 percent?  And how much
enforcement?  And who will pay for it all?  The consumer of course in higher
prices.  I'm guessing there are probably more consumers who vote than hams
who vote.
> 
> This all reminds me of the old 50s/60s TVI issue of adding high pass
filtering to all of the TVs sold out there so they won't pick up RFI from
hams even though more than 99.9% of TVs won't be located near an active ham
station.  Does it make any sense to spend millions of dollars (billions in
today's dollars) to add the high pass filters to ever TV including the
99.99% that do not need them, or is it maybe more efficient to add the HP
filters to only those located near active ham stations?  I seriously doubt
we hams will win that debate.
> 
> Most of today's RFI issues are much more complex to resolve than the old
TVI filters issue.  But it still comes down to a balance between how much
the consumer is willing to pay versus how willing the ham operator is
willing to take action for a resolution to the RFI problems.  Based on this,
I'd say we're lucky to have the FCC and regulations somewhat on our side.
But it's still up to us amateur radio operators to get up off our duffs if
we want any action at all.
> 
> 73, de ed -K0iL
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFI [mailto:rfi-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Dale J.
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:37 PM
> To: n0tt1 at juno.com
> Cc: rfi at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [RFI] LED Bulbs
> 
> Yes, Ed pretty well summed it up.  Paul made some interesting comments
too.  
> 
> To all, thankyou for this discussion it was enlightening for me.  The old
saying goes, squeaky wheels get the grease.  Keep it up.  If we remain
quiet, then nobody hears.  Hopefully the message will at least be read, by
someone, somewhere.    
> 
> 73
> Dale, k9vuj
> 
> 
> On 12, Feb 2014, at 17:59, <n0tt1 at juno.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:53:51 -0600 Ed Douglass <efdouglass37 at gmail.com>
>> writes:
>>> David Robbins' argument is interesting but it takes the focus away, 
>>> it
>>> seems to me, from what should be the primary point of our efforts.  
>>> The
>>> point is that the FCC's job in the first instance is to regulate 
>>> the
>>> manufacturers and importers of electronic equipment so that the 
>>> equipment
>>> does not cause interference to licensed users of the radio spectrum. 
>>> If
>>> such regulation had been enforced, then we amateurs would not need 
>>> to be
>>> approaching our neighbors about their RFI-generating appliances.
>>> 
>>> For the RFI-generating equipment already in the country, then we 
>>> will have
>>> to approach our neighbors and hope we have the FCC's backing if our 
>>> efforts
>>> fail.
>>> 
>>> For the long haul, however, we need to use ourselves and our ARRL to 
>>> get
>>> the FCC to enforce its rules (and tighten them, where necessary).
>>> 
>>> 73 de Ed, AA9OZ
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes!!  That would be the thing to do.  What's the best approach
>> to get the FCC back on track?  
>> 
>> I would like to think the ARRL would help with that by 
>> making a concerted effort to get it done.  And the
>> ARRL will need a lot of support (including money) from us!!
>> 
>> 73,
>> Charlie, N0TT
>> 
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