[RFI] IR Illuminator for Security Camerasmay

Tue Feb 1 06:41:20 EST 2022

I have thought about doing that, but there are a lot of reasons not to.

The first is cost-vs-benefit, and it is more the latter than the former that is the showstopper.  Products change all the time, so if we were to spend many tens of hours testing a few products, at about 2 hours per product, counting the time to identify one, choose one, obtain it, unpack it, set it up for testing, test it, document and put it away to be stored for a while, although that has value, more than likely, two years later, it would no longer be available. I can't count the number of times that I have gone to Walmart to buy something I bought a year ago, only to find that the exact model is not being sold any longer, and something slightly different, or significantly different, has taken its place.

Zak Lau once researched the Walmart web page alone and found over 50,000 electronic products being offered for sale.  There is no way anyone could test them all, or even know which ones to select.  Even more units are offered on Amazon and every one has an interference potential.

Even if we find products that are really good from a noise perspective, there is no certainty that they are going to stay that way.  ARRL has seen products that once complied no longer comply and we sometimes find filtering components in the the product removed and replaced with jumpers.  I can see the overseas factory now saying, "Oh, we are out of those inductors and can't get replacements, but it works just fine if we replace them with wires, so ship them!"  It happens all the time, by the reports we have seen and a few units we have tested.  Also, the big box stores contract to buy large lots of items and when they are near stock out, they either re-order what could possibly be a changed design, or put it out for bid again, maybe with a different company and I have seen them marketed under the same model number, even more dramatically different.

Imagine the scenario if a neighbor installs new LED bulbs and you have noise and you go to any page, ARRL or other, recommending a particular product. Your neighbor goes out and buys 20 of the lights at Wal-get and the noise is still present because the design has changed.  Not good.

So, ARRL's advice is still the best advice:  Go buy one of a few different replacements and see which one(s) are noise-free.   The work the League did was still valuable, because we did find that the vast majority of products sold in the big box stores (Walmart, Target, HD and Lowe's, for example) were compliant and that there was not a major EMC problem on our doorstep.

The issue remains that most of our noise problems come from power lines, solar and illegal grow lights way over the limits, or from the aggregate of many devices around us.

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab

________________________________
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+ehare=arrl.org at contesting.com> on behalf of Gary K9GS <k9gs at gjschwartz.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 12:15 AM
To: RFI <rfi at contesting.com>
Cc: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>
Subject: Re: [RFI] IR Illuminator for Security Cameras

Has the ARRL ever considered putting together a database of "ARRL certified" devices?This would be very useful when heading to the big-box store to buy lighting or the appliance store to buy a new appliance or furnace. 73,Gary K9GS
-------- Original message --------From: "Hare, Ed, W1RFI" <w1rfi at arrl.org> Date: 1/31/22  9:09 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Michael Tope <W4EF at dellroy.com>, David Eckhardt <davearea51a at gmail.com> Cc: RFI <rfi at contesting.com> Subject: Re: [RFI] IR Illuminator for Security Cameras We have measured a number of LED bulbs here in the ARRL Lab.  They range from essentially zero noise to way over the FCC limits.   The good news is that all of the ones we have tested *so far* that are being sold in the big box stores do meet the FCC emissions limits. The outliers are being sold elsewhere, including eBay.  One just sent to us for testing is 26 dB over the emissions limits. It is causing bad interference.  With an actual interference case and measurements well above the FCC limits, ARRL is going to file a formal complaint on this one.  Of note, meeting the FCC limits is not a guarantee at all of no interference.  The limits below 30 MHz are for noise conducted onto the AC mains only.  There are no limits for radiated emissions below 30 MHz or limits on the amount of noise that can be put on the secondary of devices such as some kitchen lights that have a power supply and run wires to the actual LED bulbs. Generally, the rules do prevent a lot of interference, and if there is interference from a neighbor's device, it is going to be close to you and easier to find.  To be marketed, several criteria apply.* For LED bulbs and systems to be marketed to consumers, the design must be tested by the manufacturer to meet the FCC Part 15 Class B limits.  For fluourescent bulbs, they must meet Part 18 consumer limits.  Class A or non-consumer devices to do exist, bt they are supposed to be marketed only for use in commercial environments.  Lowe's and Home Depot sell "commercial" units openly, so be wary.* They must be marketed with the FCC logo and the language described earlier on a label on the product or, if the product is small, in the documentation.* These are the responsibility of the manufacturer and marketer. The end user of the product is responsible under FCC rules for using it in a way that does not cause harmful interference to licensed radio. The latter point is really hard to communicate to neighbors, so be prepared to explain why a device they just bought at Home Depot is in violation of some federal law that they don't understand.Ed Hare, W1RFIARRL Lab-----Original Message-----From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org at contesting.com> On Behalf Of Michael TopeSent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 2:53 PMTo: David Eckhardt <davearea51a at gmail.com>Cc: RFI <rfi at contesting.com>Subject: Re: [RFI] IR Illuminator for Security CamerasThank you, Dave. Yeah, I understand that this warning is somewhat perfunctory, but it was so prominently displayed in the manual and a friend was just complaining about RFI from LED lights. Those two things got me to wondering if these things (IR LED arrays) are a know problem child, or just one of the many things that can be a problem, but not always are a problem. This one takes +12V input, so I suppose the risk is low that the array itself is going to be an interference source. I assume the RFI problem with LED lights is actually the switchers that supply them rather the the semiconductors themselves and I can always use a cleaner external supply if the one that comes with this unit is junk.73, Mike W4EF.........................On 1/30/2022 11:03 AM, David Eckhardt wrote:> There is a standard FCC paragraph required for all Part 15, Class B > (Home and Small Office) products.  It's required by FCC.   No big thing.>> Here is the required statement:>> This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for > a Class B digital device, pursuant to part 15 of the FCC Rules. These > limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful > interference in a residential installation. This equipment generates, > uses and can radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed and > used in accordance with the instructions, may cause harmful > interference to radio communications. However, there is no guarantee > that interference will not occur in a particular installation. If this > equipment does cause harmful interference to radio or television > reception, which can be determined by turning the equipment off and > on, the user is encouraged to try to correct the interference by one > or more of the following measures:>>   * Reorient or relocate the receiving antenna.>   * Increase the separation between the equipment and receiver.>   * Connect the equipment into an outlet on a circuit different from>     that to which the receiver is connected.>   * Consult the dealer or an experienced radio/TV technician for help.>>> Dave - WØLEV>> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 6:56 PM Michael Tope <W4EF at dellroy.com> wrote:>>     I have a couple of south facing security cameras that I  have tucked>     under the soffits of my high desert cabin so they don't get baked>     by the>     high desert sun. The tradeoff for this is that I am getting glare off>     the soffit from the camera's built-in IR LED arrays which spoils the>     night vision image quality. I am thinking of purchasing some>     external IR>     LED arrays to solve this problem.>>     I found a positive review of this illuminator, but I got a little>     worried when I saw the FCC part 15 warning prominently displayed>     in the>     user manual:>>     https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IRP12-850nm-WideAngle-Power-Illuminator/dp/B00Q156IPE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1503002750&sr=8-1&keywords=irp12-850&linkCode=sl1&tag=stf03-20&linkId=1ea87920d2d4d067e723c3100182acbe>     > <https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IRP12-850nm-WideAngle-Power-Illuminat> or/dp/B00Q156IPE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1503002750&sr=8-1&keyword> s=irp12-850&linkCode=sl1&tag=stf03-20&linkId=1ea87920d2d4d067e723c3100> 182acbe>>>     I am not aware of any interference from the IR LED arrays that are>     built>     into the cameras, but just in case these illuminators are more>     problematic I thought I would run this by the reflector before I>     press>     the "add to cart" button.>>     Thanks,>>     Mike W4EF.................>>     _______________________________________________>     RFI mailing list>     RFI at contesting.com>     http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>>>> --> *Dave - WØLEV*> /*Just Let Darwin Work*/>_______________________________________________RFI mailing listRFI at contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi_______________________________________________RFI mailing listRFI at contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
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