[RTTY] RTTY Digest, Vol 27, Issue 25
Bob Unger
robert4461 at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 19 13:28:46 EST 2005
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Today's Topics:
1. Contest Dinner at Visalia, April 15, 2005 (Jeff Stai WK6I)
2. Re: 24 bit sound card (Kok Chen)
3. 24 bit sound card (Brad Wilcox)
4. Re: 24 bit sound card (Kok Chen)
5. bloody beginner Question (Sven - DD1LI -)
6. Re: bloody beginner Question (Scott Nichols)
7. Gotta love this one (Don Hill AA5AU)
8. Need a friendly PC to ST-8000 RTTY Program
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:49:35 -0800
From: Jeff Stai WK6I
Subject: [RTTY] Contest Dinner at Visalia, April 15, 2005
To: nccc at contesting.com, sccc at contesting.com, Mldxcc at contesting.com,
rtty at contesting.com, "CQ Contest"
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050318094728.07645c68 at pop3.twistedoak.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reservation are now being accepted for the 7th Annual Contest Dinner at the International DX Convention in Visalia, CA.
The dinner will be held Friday, April 15, 2005, with serving starting at 7:30pm.
The speaker will be Veijo Kontas, OH6KN with a presentation of his monster contest station (one 42m tower, three 60m towers and one 105m tower plus many antennas) built in Oulu, Finland.
Cost is $25 per person (in addition to the convention registration fee) PAID IN CASH AT THE DOOR!
Reservations are required, so please reserve your seat at the dinner and make your menu selection at:
http://www.twistedoak.com/wk6i/contestdinner.html
see you there! - 73 - Jeff, WK6I & Steve, K6AW
--
Jeff Stai jds at twistedoak.com
Twisted Oak Winery http://www.twistedoak.com/
Rocketry Org. of CA http://www.rocstock.org/
Amateur Radio WK6I
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:54:40 -0800
From: Kok Chen
Subject: Re: [RTTY] 24 bit sound card
To: RTTY Reflector
Cc: David Hachadorian
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Mar 18, 2005, at 6:32 AM, David Hachadorian wrote:
> Is there any advantage to using a 24 bit sound card when
> demodulating rtty with MMTTY?
I'll bet that you will find that there are various opinions on this.
Here are my 2 cents.
Warning, this is long. If you don't want to read through all of it,
the gist is that IMHO, it depends on whether you use narrow IF filters
or wide IF filters. If there is there is no interfering signal in the
passband, then a 16-bit converter is ample if you are willing to ride
the audio/RF gain. If you have the possibility of two signals in the
same passband or you are using "wide passband RTTY", then the analysis
becomes more complex. It also depends on whether your operating
system's audio library can support anything more than 16 bits -- the
MacOS X's audio framework is floating point, for example.
First consider a 16 bit converter. The maximum numerical range is of
the order of 96 dB assuming that 1) the A/D converter is linear to 1
out of 1 bits, 2) there is some noise dithering and 3) the noise floor
of the stages that precede the is low enough to support the 96 dB.
However, this numerical range is not quite the same in some sense as
the dynamic range. Let us say there are two signals in the audio
passband. If the loud signal is 96 dB louder than the weaker signal,
the weaker signal is itself a 1 bit (square wave) signal. There is
something in the Radar Astronomy world called the Van Vleck theorem (I
think it is also called the "arc-sine rule" in Probabililty theory, but
it has been a long time sine I cracked open a volume of feller or
Papoulis, so don;t hold me to this). What the theorem says is that you
can recover the spectrum of a hard clipped signal perfectly, if it is
in a strong Gaussian noise environment, but at a loss of 2.19 dB of
SNR.
At the threshold of FSK detection, 2 dB of SNR change (for the case
where there is no QSB, just noise) is huge, and can be a difference of
practically printing everything (one or two bad prints per line) to
printing lots of garbage (one out of 4 characters are bad). Take a
look at the plots in textbooks and the AWGN plots that Alex VE3NEA had
posted a month or two back on this reflector. So, 2 dB lowered SNR is
a "bad thing" for us RTTY folks.
I had done some work many eons ago to extend van Vleck to the multi-bit
case (playing with joint Gaussian distributions and integrations
thereof) and showed that the SNR ratio loss can be made "negligible"
when you are up at the 4 bit region instead of the 1 bit (hard clipped)
region. In practice, we don't have Gaussian noise on the ham bands,
and no one uses the arc sine transform to receiver spectra, so we will
do worse that "2.19 dB" of SNR loss.
So, the 96 dB numerical range of a perfect 16 bit converter now reduces
to 72 dB of usable dynamic range if you need 4 bits to represent the
weaker signal.
Is 72 dB enough?
First, the 72 dB is for ideal additive Gaussian noise and if you also
apply the corrective transformations. My guess is that in practice,
you are playing more in the area of 60 dB to 70 dB.
Now lets consider two cases: 1) you are using a 250 Hz filter and 2)
you are using a 2500 Hz filter ahead of the A/D converter.
With a 250 Hz filter, unless another signal straddles the desired
signal, you are working with a single signal case. I cannot imagine,
in this case that you need more than 30 or 40 dB of dynamic range, as
long as there is no QSB which your rig's AGC has not taken care of, and
the band conditions don't change over time. Afterall, under the single
signal case, even a hard clipped (some people call it limitered or "FM"
demodulation of RTTY) signal prints pretty well, although both RITTY
and cocoaModem use linear matched filters and work better when there is
no limiter or hard clipping whatsoever.
Furthermore, band conditions could change so you might have to ride the
gain of your transceiver so that the A/D converter "sees" a signal that
neither clips it nor less than 4 to 6 bits in magnitude -- this is
where more bits help. Modems such as the ST-8000 (85 dB dynamic
range) and the Timewave DSP-599zx have built in AGC. Notice that
good 24 bit converters have between 95 to 105 dB weighted noise floors,
and they can basically give you better dynamic range than modems of the
past which had to use AGC! AGC has its own problems -- you may have
noticed that with AGC engaged in a modem, you might miss the first
couple of characters when a very loud CQ'ing station starts up in a
contest.
If you are willing to install a pot before the A/D converter (or have a
mechanism to adjust the attenuation in the A/D converter) and have a
way to constantly monitor the signal to make sure the signal is large
enough but not saturating the A/D converter, then a 16 bit converter,
with the operator manually riding the gain is plenty good enough, IMHO
in the single signal case.
However, the problem is different if you do any "wide passband RTTY,"
i.e., watching an entire 2 to 3 kHz, or more passband). In this case,
you just about always have more than two signals in the passband.
Under a DX pileup condition (where you can see both DX and the pile) or
under contest conditions, the "60 dB to 70 dB" worth of dynamic range
is not good enough for a wide passband. That is assuming that the
rig's front end dynamic range is good at least to the 70-80 dB region
in the first place.
My crazy prediction is this: RTTY will eventually move to use wide
passband and perhaps also the point and click waterfall tuning as
practiced today in PSK31. There are simply too many advantages with
wide passband operation (for a DX station picking a signal from the
pile, for a non-DX station fining where in the pile to call, for
multiple decoding streams in a contest when you are doing S&P, etc etc.
To use wide passband RTTY, you will need A/D converters that have
better dynamic range than the rig's front end or the A/D converter will
be limiting the overall dynamic range of your station.
Personally, I use a M-Audio Transit (24-bit) as my A/D converter, into
a homebrew software modem that does make use of 24 bits of numerical
range. Your mileage may vary.
And be careful... not all "24-bit" converters perform the same, just as
not all "16-bit" converters perform the same. Look for actual dynamic
range, including noise floor contributions, and not just count the
bits.
73
Chen, W7AY
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:43:29 -0700
From: Brad Wilcox
Subject: [RTTY] 24 bit sound card
To: RTTY Refector
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dave,
I just upgraded my computer and found a Creative SBLive 24 Bit card on
sale for under $20.00. I thoughtI would be smart and install the
extra soundcard to
have for digital HF, and the one on the motherboard for my son's games, etc.
The sound card on the motherboard (Asus A7N8X-E DX)passed the sound
check program 7f, but the Creativecard did not.
Nevertheless, I did use it in the NA Sprint last week and it seemed
fine with no compatibility problems with the motherboard card, and
that's the only thing I was
concerned about.
Brad - KJ7NO
>Is anyone using a 24 bit card that passes all the Writelog tests
>for functionality?
>I am thinking of something along the lines of the Sound Blaster
>Live 24. My current on-board audio is ok, but I
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:11:53 -0800
From: Kok Chen
Subject: Re: [RTTY] 24 bit sound card
To: rtty at contesting.com
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Mar 18, 2005, at 10:17 AM, rwmcgwier at comcast.net wrote:
> The dynamic range of the audio coming out of the modern
> transceiver from
> ANY port, headphone, speaker, line level output, is less than
> that afforded you
> by an 8 bit audio card.
I will try to find time to record the audio amplitude variations
across the band in some future contest and also study how many bits
an RTTY signal (plus noise) needs to be above the LSB of an A/D
converter for it to be "close enough" to the optimal case.
I will also try to record the strength of the really weak signals
that come across the Pacific when the 20m band is "dead."
On top of the audio variation, hard clipping a signal before passing
it through a matched filter is obviously not optimal, so you will
need a few more bits than just letting a weak signal tickle the least
significant bit of the A/D. The only analyses I have seen are based
on the AWGN case, so it is worth looking at more real world cases.
The case of quantized FSK can be readily simulated with the sound
files from VE3NEA (especially Alex' multipath and selective fading
files) and are probably worth doing, before going to actual recorded
signals off the band.
BTW, here is another vote for the SDR-1000.
With the SDR-1000, even good two channel 24 bits A/D converter do not
have enough I and Q channel balance across the passband to deliver
the kinds of dynamic range that the SDR-1000 is capable of, but the
"radio" does have a pulse generator in the front end to give you the
capability of equalizing the A/D converters. Macintosh users will be
happy to learn that there will soon be an alternative to using a
parallel port to control the SDR-1000, which means you can run it on
any modern Macs. I don't think that it is listed at Flex-Radio's web
page yet but I have been playing with a USB (as in Universal Serial
Bus and not upper sideband) adapter from them (you do have to write
code yourself to download the adapter's firmware -- but it is just
the standard Anchor chip set).
73
Chen, W7AY
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:34:24 +0100
From: Sven - DD1LI -
Subject: [RTTY] bloody beginner Question
To: rtty at contesting.com
Message-ID: <200503182134.24171.dd1li at gmx.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I know , I have to google before I ask dumb questions !!!!
But i have a bloody beginner Question :
Where can I find the results of the CQ WW WPX RTTY - Contest ??????
Is there a special side where they are shown ???
CU on BARTG this Weekend !!!
DD1LI
-Sven-
--
German Amateur Radio Station
Member of :
DARC M11
IGFiH 80FF
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:51:39 -0400
From: Scott Nichols
Subject: Re: [RTTY] bloody beginner Question
To: dd1li at gmx.de, rtty at contesting.com
Message-ID: <002f01c52c04$aab7f100$6501a8c0 at old>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
http://www.rttycontesting.com/results.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sven - DD1LI -"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: [RTTY] bloody beginner Question
> I know , I have to google before I ask dumb questions !!!!
>
> But i have a bloody beginner Question :
> Where can I find the results of the CQ WW WPX RTTY - Contest ??????
> Is there a special side where they are shown ???
>
> CU on BARTG this Weekend !!!
>
> DD1LI
> -Sven-
>
> --
> German Amateur Radio Station
> Member of :
> DARC M11
> IGFiH 80FF
>
> _______________________________________________
> RTTY mailing list
> RTTY at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rtty
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:07:35 -0600
From: "Don Hill AA5AU"
Subject: [RTTY] Gotta love this one
To: "'RTTY Mailing List'"
Message-ID:
<20050319060735.WSAD14689.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net at AA5AU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DX de EA4CRP: 14089.5 EA4CRP RTTY TEST
------------------------------
Message 8
Saturday March 19, 2005
>From Bob Unger, WB3DTG
To: RTTY Mailing List
Subject: PC terminal program for RTTY with/using ST-8000
Can anyone steer me to a PC/RTTY program using Serial Interface form the computer to TU. I like the versitility of my old St-8000 and would like to keep it running. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
73 de Bob
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End of RTTY Digest, Vol 27, Issue 25
************************************
73 de Bob in Bethlehem, Pa. WB3DTG@#CEPA.PA.USA.NOAM
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