[SECC] Reference for radial discussion

Fri Aug 24 20:47:16 EDT 2007

I once saw part of the installing process for a commercial radio transmitting tower.  The counterpoise grid was at least an acre...a lot of steel wires/rods welded at their intersections...it was very extensive.

The best vertical antenna installation I was ever a part of was the MARS station aboard USS Forrestal.  We clamped half a TA-33 driven element on the catwalk railing, port side aft, pointing straight down because we could not have anything above the level of the flight deck. Our counterpoise/radial system was about 85,000 tons of steel floating in a lot of brine.  Needless to say, it was directional...we could not work much off the starboard bow but had little trouble with the other 270 degrees.  And "CQ MM REGION 1, 2, or 3" seldom went unanswered.

Ah, the Good Ole Days !       73 / CF 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hal Kennedy 
  To: secc at contesting.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [SECC] Reference for radial discussion

  Hi George,

  Maybe that’s why this is done so seldom – the 32.5% saving in copper has not been worth the extra trouble.  With copper prices where they are now – maybe it would pay off – particularly if you wanted to do what we did at K4JA.  The 9 circle 80M vertical array there had 100 100ft radials under each of the 9 antennas.  That’s 90,000 feet (about 18 miles) of wire.  It took all summer to put it down, but it sure did work good!

  Terman, Kraus, LaPorte and others are on the bookshelf here as well.  I have a few radio rooks from the 20s and 30s that have remarkably good and accurate descriptions of how things work – as valid today as ever.

  Best 73,

  Hal

  N4GG

  -----Original Message-----
  From: w4buw at aol.com [mailto:w4buw at aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 11:25 PM
  To: halken at comcast.net
  Subject: Re: [SECC] Reference for radial discussion

  Hi, Hal... just ran some quick number crunching based on your description of the circular tie-ring radial grid, and come up with the following:

  Center to first ring:     16x33= 528
  First ring to second:   32x33=1056
  Second ring to 100ft: 64x34=2176
  Total radial lengths:            3760

  Tie ring 1:  =piD1=3.14x 66=207.24
  Tie ring 2:  =piD2=3.14x132=414.48
  Total Tie ring length:          621.72

  Total wire length:  3760+621.72=4381.72 ft

  For 64-100ft radials:  64x100=6400 ft

  4381.72/6400=.6846..., or roughly 68.5%

  I suspect the roughly 55% comes from just the radial length, which comes out 58.75%, if you do not count the need for the tie rings...

  I'm an old retired EE who got this call when still 12 yrs young, and will be 69 next birthday.  Many changes in the hobby, but still enjoy the number crunching, HI!

  As you know, the key is to improve the ground system efficiency in order to reduce that portion of the antenna system losses. Part of the consideration is the dimensions between ground system conductors as compared to the wavelength at the operating frequency.  Yes, I also enjoy Terman, Jasik, and LaPorte, as well as Kraus.

  73 de George, W4BUW (SECC, SC)

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Hal Kennedy <halken at comcast.net>
  To: secc at contesting.com
  Sent: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 4:48 pm
  Subject: [SECC] Reference for radial discussion

  The concentric radial approach I mentioned I thought was discussed within the 564 page book: Radio Antenna Engineering, by LaPorte.  This is a classic and good addition to anyone’s antenna library – particularly considering the price – free.

  Go to www.lulu.com  and type “Antenna Engineering” into the search box.  It’s the first book returned in the search.  You can download all 33Meg for free.

  Meanwhile, I can’t find the particular radial approach I was thinking of in the book, although many different radial schemes are discussed.

  Concentric system:

  The problem with radials that simple radiate out from a central point is that they do not cover each square meter of ground equally well.  They are spaced far apart at the ends and tightly bunched at the center.  To get a “really good” radial system it is sometimes recommended that 120 radials be used or the ends be no more than 0.02 wavelength apart – broadcasters frequently use 120.  For the first few feet from the tower its nothing but solid copper and most of this is wasted.  The alternative is as follows:

  Suppose you want a 64 radial system of 100 foot radials.  Place a concentric circular loop wire 33 feet out from the center and another 66 feet out from the tower.  Connect 16 radials from the center to the fist ring wire, 32 radial wires from the first ring wire to the second, and 64 wires outward from the outer ring wire to 100 feet.  In all cases the wires should be equally spaced around in azimuth angle.  This system will use around 55% as much copper as 64 full sized radials (I forget the exact ratio) and yield the same performance.  Soldering all the wires to the ring loops however, is a lot of extra work.  If its going to be in or on the ground for a long time then regular solder should not be used either – it should be silver solder.

  73

  Hal

  N4GG

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