[TenTec] omni v short dits
n4lq
n4lq at iglou.com
Mon Jul 26 14:20:32 EDT 2004
Well no wonder I couldn't send good on that thing! Maybe the compensaton
was throwing my mental timming out of sync.
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bob Henderson" <bob at cytanet.com.cy>
To: <tentec at contesting.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:38:16 -0000
Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> Steve
>
> Both keying compensation and keying weight are constants. Compensation
> is a
> constant time period added to every character element, whereas Weight
> is a
> constant ratio. The time compensating effect of Weight is variable
> with
> speed for a given ratio constant.
>
> I can assure you the Logikey circuit of the K3 will behave in this way.
> If
> you want first hand proof then connect up a 'scope and check it out.
>
> I grant you that the Weight control on some keyers adjusts both dot and
> dash
> length but that does not alter the origin of weight and its initial
> definition. With mechanical bugs only the dots were made automatically
> by
> the action of the pendulum, the dashes were made manually. The
> adjustment
> of keying weight referred to the mark space ratio of dots.
>
> It is understandable that with the el-bug, a Weight adjustment might
> logically be used to adjust the period for both dot and dash. After
> all,
> whatever Tx time constant is being compensated affects both dots and
> dashes.
>
> My advice to anyone buying an electronic keyer today would be to buy
> one
> with Keying Compensation and forget about Weighting controls.
> Weighting
> controls belong in a bygone age. What they set out to do can be far
> better
> achieved today with Keying Compensation.
>
> Bob, 5B4AGN, P3F
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "n4lq" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
>
>
> > Bob:
> > I think what you're trying to say is: Compensation is consistent
> with
> > speed while weighting is not. I would have to see proof of this on a
> K3.
> >
> > I disagree with your dot only comment.
> > Any keyer I've ever had will change both dot and dash weight when you
> > increase the weight control.
> >
> > Furthermore. If I crank up the weight on a keyer, it sounds heavy no
> > matter how fast or slow I'm going however it does make copy more
> > difficult when going fast with lots of weight.
> >
> > Now for a TenTec commercial just to keep it legal.
> > My first keyer was a TenTec KR40 back in 1974 or so. It cost $79 and
> that
> > seemed like a lot. However it was built like a tank, was Iambic, had
> > weight and speed controls, could key tube or ss rigs with it's
> internal
> > relay, built in paddles with magnetic springs etc. It was far ahead
> of
> > it's time.
> >
> > Steve N4LQ
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Bob Henderson" <bob at cytanet.com.cy>
> > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:12:49 -0000
> > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> >
> > > I deduce from your mail that you're not overly impressed by Idiom
> Press
> > > and
> > > their K3 keyer! I don't own a K3 and have no relationship with
> Idiom
> > > Press.
> > > I do use a Samson ETM9 which is a Logikey circuit, similar I
> believe,
> > > to the
> > > K3. I point all of this out as I am now going to disagree with you
> > > pretty
> > > much 100%.
> > >
> > > There is a world of difference between weighting and keying
> > > compensation.
> > > Though at a given speed it is possible to adjust either for a
> similar
> > > sounding effect. It is the speed change that you make after the
> > > weighting
> > > adjustment that causes things to come apart at the seems.
> > >
> > > Weighting is the duty cycle of a string of dots. It is adjustable
> on
> > > most
> > > modern keyers in the range 25-75%. Good code is dot weighted at
> 50%.
> > >
> > > Keying compensation changes key down to key up time by a fixed
> number
> > > of mS
> > > completely independent of sending speed.
> > >
> > > Weighting was originally talked about when mechanical bugs were the
> > > norm.
> > > These keys frequently clipped dots and or made unclean breaks at
> the
> > > end of
> > > dots. All of these were mechanical problems. The rigs of the day
> had
> > > a
> > > different, though complementary tendency to extend character
> elements.
> > > Of
> > > course rigs then didn't have microprocessor control and tended to
> be
> > > either
> > > cathode or grid block keyed. Back in those days with cathode keyed
> > > rigs the
> > > steps you took to avoid key clicks were not only to remove the
> clicks
> > > caused
> > > by the rig but also by the unclean make and break tendency of the
> > > mechanical
> > > bugs contacts. In classic fashion the tendency was to soften the
> rise
> > > and
> > > fall of the carrier wave at the start and end of character
> elements.
> > > Sometimes this was done to what by today's standards, would be
> > > considered
> > > extreme ammounts. Didn't you ever set up a bug using an ohmeter so
> you
> > > could see it was producing 50% duty cycle but then find it sounded
> > > either
> > > heavy or scratchy when keying the rig? Scratchy because of the bug
> > > contacts
> > > or heavy because of the time constant added to get rid of the
> scratchy
> > > effect. Frequently, I would find that weighting would need to be
> set
> > > at
> > > 40-45% at the bug to produce 50% on air. (Elements extended
> through
> > > click
> > > reduction measures). The big problem was that weighting set at 25
> wpm
> > > was
> > > no good at all if the speed was increased to 50 wpm. It's easy to
> see
> > > why.........
> > >
> > > Say for example, you have a dot length of 40mS with keyer weight
> set at
> > > 50%
> > > but that this sounds heavy because of your rigs wave shaping time
> > > constant.
> > > You reduce your weighting to 40% to restore a 50% weighted on air
> > > signal
> > > from the transmitter. Having done this, your keyer dot length
> would be
> > > 32mS
> > > to produce an on air 50% weighted 40mS dot. In this scenario your
> TX
> > > is
> > > extending character elements by 8mS. Quite common in the "Old
> days".
> > > Now
> > > you double your speed and half your keyer dot length to 20mS. What
> > > happens?
> > > Well your keying sounds heavy again. Why? Because your 40%
> weighting
> > > is
> > > shortening your dot by only 4mS to 16mS now but your TX is
> extending
> > > your
> > > dot by 8ms meaning that on air your dot is 24mS long. To restore
> an on
> > > air
> > > 50% weight you would have to reduce your keyer weighting to 30%.
> > >
> > > By now you can probably see that keying compensation is a much
> better
> > > scenario. If your rig extends by X mS you want your keyer to
> shorten
> > > your
> > > elements by X mS. On the other hand if your rig truncates
> character
> > > elements by X mS you will want your keyer to extend elements by X.
> > >
> > > Earlier firmware in the Orion truncated character elements by
> around
> > > 8-10mS.
> > > I got around that problem with my keyer which I programmed to
> extend
> > > character elements by 8mS. This fixed the problem regardless of
> > > sending
> > > speed. I could have achieved a similar result by adjusting
> weighting
> > > but I
> > > would have had to readjust it every time I changed keying speed.
> Not
> > > nearly
> > > as convenient.
> > >
> > > The 8-10mS element truncation on the Orion is now a thing of the
> past,
> > > so I
> > > have deleted the 8mS extension from my ETM9C programming. I
> believe
> > > Orion
> > > still truncates by around 2-3mS but that is not significant at the
> > > speeds I
> > > work. Never these days do I send above 50 wpm. If I did and I was
> > > concerned about it then it only takes a moment to program a 2 or
> 3mS
> > > delay
> > > into my ETM9C. I can do the same in Writelog for computer
> generated
> > > code
> > > for contesting. Interestingly the author of Writelog has confused
> > > matters
> > > somewhat by referring to what is a keying compensation adjustment
> in
> > > the
> > > program as a "Weighting " adjustment.
> > >
> > > So there you have it. If I have explained myself adequately, you
> will
> > > now
> > > understand the difference between weighting and keying
> compensation.
> > > Who
> > > knows you might even conclude the folks at Idiom are not quite the
> > > Idiots
> > > you thought. I guess the corollary is that if my explanation
> doesn't
> > > work
> > > for you then you'll just add me to the Idiom Asylum.
> > >
> > > Bob, 5B4AGN, P3F
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 4:49 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > >
> > >
> > > > This is really so simple and the K3 propaganda has folks
> confused.
> > > > Simply put. Some rigs chop dits. Your keyer makes a nice heavy
> dit
> > > and the
> > > > rig shortens it.
> > > > There is a cure....Increase the weight of your keying.
> > > > You can do this with most any elcheapo MFJ keyer.
> > > > Idiot Press's K3 not only has a weight setting but what they call
> a
> > > "keying
> > > > compensation" adjustment. They are blowing smoke about the
> "delay"
> > > issue
> > > > just to make you think their keyer has something that others
> don't.
> > > > Here is proof to the doubters.
> > > > Listen to yourself on another receiver. Try changing the weight
> and
> > > > compensation and LISTEN. You will see that they do EXACTLY the
> same
> > > thing
> > > to
> > > > your signal. They are duplicate controls.
> > > > The only difference is in the sidetone of the K3 keyer. The
> sidetone
> > > will
> > > > follow the weight control but not the compensation setting.
> > > > People gobble up this compensation talk like it's the final cure
> for
> > > their
> > > > QSK ills and rate the K3 very high while all along it has no
> > > advantage to
> > > > other keyers and in fact, I found the timing of their "mode B" to
> be
> > > > slightly different than a real Curtis chip and am able to key
> with
> > > less
> > > > errors on the real thing. 73
> > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Tommy" <aldermant at alltel.net>
> > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:52 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > It must be Sunday because my brain cell just can not tell the
> > > difference
> > > > > between increasing the key-on time and decreasing the key-off
> time,
> > > and
> > > > > changing the weight ratio of a character.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you delay the key closure, you are not keying anything, so
> how
> > > does
> > > > that
> > > > > increase something that has not started yet?
> > > > >
> > > > > If you delay the key closure to "decrease the keying-off
> time",
> > > how can
> > > > you
> > > > > decrease the off time of something that has not started?
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe this is one of those things that are much harder to
> explain
> > > the to
> > > > > actually do? The radio is not going to (obviously) start
> producing
> > > RF
> > > > until
> > > > > the key is closed, so if your delaying the time before you
> close
> > > the
> > > key,
> > > > > the radio is just sitting there staring at you, until you
> actually
> > > close
> > > > the
> > > > > key.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I need a beer. At least it's something to ponder for
> the
> > > rest of
> > > > the
> > > > > day. Make that two beers!
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom - W4BQF
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 9:45 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Steve -
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You asked "How does the rig know it's "make" is being
> delayed
> > > by a
> > > > > keyer?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's the reverse, the key closure is delayed to increase
> key-on
> > > time,
> > > > or
> > > > > > decrease
> > > > > > keying-off time, by the amount of mS you set to match the
> rig's
> > > on
> > > > delay.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > adjustment is independent of speed and is used to correct
> keying
> > > > > distortion
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > various transceivers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You will note that ARRL tests of key closure versus signal
> > > transmit
> > > > delay
> > > > > of
> > > > > > different rigs are shown. I measured the mS needed to
> > > compensate my
> > > > > > rigs from those test pix. The Paragon II was "dead on" using
> the
> > > > Paragon
> > > > > > (1)
> > > > > > test results. Saved a lot of fussin".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 73 - Don VE1BN at eastlinbk.ca
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 9:17 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes sir. I had a K3 Super Duper CMOS here for some time. I
> sold
> > > it
> > > > > because
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > didn't like the mode B emulation. Other than that, it's ok.
> > > Listening
> > > > to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > weight vs. "keying compensation" adjustment in another
> > > receiver,
> > > they
> > > > > > seem
> > > > > > > to do exactly the same thing which is to increase the
> length of
> > > the
> > > > > > > characters. The only difference is that the "keying
> > > compensation"
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > affect the K3's racus sidetone.
> > > > > > > Now I have a question about one of your statements.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Keying compensation allows the make to be delayed so that
> the
> > > start
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > rig's
> > > > > > > > keying envelope matches the keyer. The weight control
> is
> > > > different."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How does the rig know it's "make" is being delayed by a
> keyer?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyway, for some rigs, especially ICOMS, when used in QSK
> mode,
> > > extra
> > > > > > weight
> > > > > > > is needed. When I use my MFJ 407 with the PROII in QSK
> mode, I
> > > simply
> > > > > > crank
> > > > > > > up the weight control about 30%. In Semi-bkin mode, I turn
> it
> > > back
> > > to
> > > > > > > normal. The sidetone in the PROII reflects this change and
> > > sounds
> > > > rather
> > > > > > > heavy. When using the K3 keyer, you get the same exact
> effect
> > > when
> > > > > > > increasing either the "weight" or "compensation". If you
> can
> > > stand
> > > to
> > > > > > listen
> > > > > > > to the sick duck sidetone of the K3, the weight of the
> sidetone
> > > is
> > > > > > preserved
> > > > > > > by increasing the "compensation" instead of the "weight".
> So
> > > basically
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > "compensation" adjustment is a gimmick.
> > > > > > > Most TenTec rigs do not seem to require additional weight
> but
> > > las
> > > Tom
> > > > > > > mentioned, the Omni 6+ does need a little help over about
> 45
> > > WPM.
> > > The
> > > > > > Orion
> > > > > > > seems to be rather unpredictable in this reguard. Mine was
> > > choppy at
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > then I upgraded the software and it sounded much better but
> my
> > > QSK
> > > > > became
> > > > > > > slow. Maybe there's a relation!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 7:45 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Whatever, Steve. Please don't take me for a fool.
> Guess I
> > > am
> > > just
> > > > a
> > > > > > > lucky
> > > > > > > > fellow
> > > > > > > > with a CMOS Superkeyer 3 which can compensate keying in
> > > various
> > > > rigs.
> > > > > > > Ever
> > > > > > > > try one? Was a cmcl op, used a bug for 40 years from
> early
> > > ham
> > > > days
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > 1946
> > > > > > > > until I sold my little Zephyr 5 years ago. I've used the
> CMOS
> > > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > past
> > > > > > > > 9.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Guess I'm a true blue CW op too!! I know you don't
> > > tighten the
> > > > > dits
> > > > > > up
> > > > > > > > on a bug
> > > > > > > > as close as suggested.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Keying compensation allows the make to be delayed so that
> the
> > > start
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > rig's
> > > > > > > > keying envelope matches the keyer. The weight control
> is
> > > > different.
> > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > shortens
> > > > > > > > the spacing of characters, sort of runs them together if
> too
> > > much
> > > > > weight
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > set. Big
> > > > > > > > difference. These are heard in the Ten-Tec sidetones.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Was just suggesting a possible solution, but forget it
> OM,
> > > you
> > > > > > apparently
> > > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > have the answers....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > By the way, no offence taken or meant.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 73 - Don VE1BN at eastlink.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gosh. just seems to do the job. ----- Original
> Message
> > > -----
> > > > > > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 8:06 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Keying compensation? Delay? Sounds like a line from the
> K3
> > > manual.
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > suppose
> > > > > > > > > if he had a keyer he could crank up the weight but
> I'm
> > > not
> > > sure
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > ole
> > > > > > > > > boy owns one. He's a true, blue cw op! Bug only! BTW:
> That
> > > "keying
> > > > > > > > > compensation" is just another weight control. The only
> > > difference
> > > > in
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > and a regular weight control on a Curtis keyer is the
> fact
> > > that
> > > it
> > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > affect the sidetone (which few people use anyway).
> > > > > > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: "Don Watters" <ve1bn at eastlink.ca>
> > > > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:19 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve -
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Any way he can set the keying compensation? I found
> my
> > > Paragon
> > > > > II
> > > > > > > > needed
> > > > > > > > > > about 15 mS delay to give a smooth keying
> characteristic.
> > > No
> > > > > > shortened
> > > > > > > > > makes
> > > > > > > > > > or clicks. Worth a try if he can set it up.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 73 - Don, VE1BN at eastlink.ca
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > From: "Steve N4LQ" <n4lq at iglou.com>
> > > > > > > > > > To: <tentec at contesting.com>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 6:30 PM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [TenTec] omni v short dits
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A friend of mine has an Omni V and he is trying to
> use a
> > > bug
> > > > > however
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > dits are being chopped so badly that he can't use it.
> > > I've
> > > never
> > > > > had
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > TenTec rig that chopped dits like this one. I've hear
> him
> > > on
> > > the
> > > > > air
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > even with his dit weight screwed to almost touching,
> he
> > > sounds
> > > > > > > horrible.
> > > > > > > > > > It's like something is wrong in the keying circuit.
> Has
> > > anyone
> > > > > > > > experienced
> > > > > > > > > > this?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Steve N4LQ
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > TenTec at contesting.com
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > TenTec at contesting.com
> > > > > > > > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
> > > > > > > > > TenTec at contesting.com
> > > > > > > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
> > > > > > > > TenTec at contesting.com
> > > > > > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > TenTec mailing list
> > > > > > > TenTec at contesting.com
> > > > > > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
> > > > > > >
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