[TenTec] QSK or not?

[Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP]

Billy,

When were you an SWL in DL?  And where?
I was also an SWL in DL as a kid.
That was 1959 to 1962.  QTH was Zweibrucken, near the French border.
I would have gotten on the air but in Germany we had to be 18 and I was just
a very early teenager.

The relay trick you mentioned was indeed good.  It effectively doubled the
voltage applied to the T/R relay just for an instant, speeding it up
considerably.  It almost immediately reverted to normal voltage to prevent
any damage to the relay.  In fact, in consideration of the fact that TEN-TEC
does not delay the first dit long enough for the Ameritron relays, it's a
great idea to use this circuit with Ameritron amps (if you don't have the
QSK-5 option).

YES, the open frame relays are now a bit faster than they formerly were, but
the current real life switching time, including settling time and/or delay
added from reverse diode is "20mS".  This was measured within the last 10
days on a brand new AL-80B by Bob, K4TAX.

I agree the point on filtering to solve some of the PIN diode issues.
However I guarantee you that you won't get anyone in our club (over 400
members) to go back to PIN-Diode switching.  Our club members are fanatics
(as I used to be) and spend a lot of time and money planning their contest
expeditions.  In the past, PIN diodes caused us a lot of grief.  Vacuum
relays wear out after a long time, but they usually do not die prematurely.


Quality of tubes is a very serious problem.  More than most people realize.
The only tube I really like besides the 3-500z and the 3CX-1200Z is the
572B.  Recently, for several months RF Parts could not even deliver any
decent 572Bs, and now they say "limited stock, please call". Good quality
tubes are scarce.  I still have one brand new (boxed) 3-500z from Amperex.
I've had it for over 20 years - just in case. Based on my experience (sorry,
there I go again - hi), that should cover my needs for the rest of my life.
I have to add that I do not abuse my amps.  I run my 3-500z at about 600w.
They last forever that way!

73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)



-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Billy Cox
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:02 PM
To: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP; 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?

Hi Rick, and I enjoy following your posts!

I was a SWL in DL land as a kid and was
amazed at some of the signals there, so
do understand the challenges a wee bit,
glad to know things are improving there.

Several years ago I believe Ameritron did change the original (SLOW) relay
to a newer design. As mine use the QSK board, which means the T/R relay is
always in "T", I have not considered changing them out. 

Adding the QSK board was a cleaner/quicker option for me than as Gary
mentioned in his post, adding someone's custom idea to an amp.

One of the contest clubs, YCCC? came up with a way to speed the old stock
relay but even that would NOT be fast enough for true QSK.

Much of the PIN "QRM" can be addressed with filtering/bypassing, as SO2R has
some of the same challenges as M/M with lots of close RF.

The AL1200 is a good amp, not perfect and it's tube replacement cost
continues to rise. So far, there's not been a need to have to do that yet.

Probably the best tubes today for most of us, are either the 3-500Z new or
the 8877 sourced as a reliable "pull". Sadly the quality of many other RF
tubes has become an adventure in risk.

That is all part of learning and understanding how things really work, ...
or should/could work and that makes this hobby so enjoyable at times.

(BTW, these posts regarding QSK are encouraging as to one more sign that CW
is not going away.)

Have a great weekend there Rick!

73 de Billy, AA4NU

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP
>Hi Billy,
>
>Nice to hear from you again.  Indeed the AL-1200 is a wonderful amplifier!
>
>I did say "my experience", and that is based on personal ownership as 
>well as lots of friends, members of my contest club, who had similar
experience.
>
>BTW, it's more than $500 over here.  Average?  $500 is a fair comment.
>
>In addition we have always had a problem here in Europe with the 
>shortwave broadcast stations.  You guys heard them, but they were 60 
>over 9 here, and the sum of the voltage hitting our rigs sometimes 
>caused the PIN-Diodes to cause IMD in the receivers.  That not only 
>affected this type of amp, but also things like the Alpha amps.  Our club
members got rid of them.
>
>Fortunately that Intermod problem has mostly gone away since the 
>broadcast stations moved outside of the 40m band...except of course 
>on-site of a multi-multi operation.
>
>The AL-1200 is indeed a lovely amplifier and would be my first choice 
>(by
>far) if we were allowed 1500w here, but I would immediately throw out 
>its open-frame relay and install a decent vacuum relay.  I wouldn't 
>mess around with the PIN-Diodes.
>We are limited to just 750w, so I stick with the 3-500z.
>
>73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Billy 
>Cox
>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:41 PM
>To: Billy Cox; Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment; 'Discussion of Ten-Tec 
>Equipment'
>Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
>
>Really Rick, that a rather subjective statement? So let's allow for 
>other's experiences too as I have run a pair of
>AL-1200 amps here with the internal QSK board for over 20 years of 
>DXing and contesting QSOs, each driven by various brands/models of gear 
>and different guest ops with * NO * design related problems.
>
>So there's another subjective statement to ponder! B-) B-)
>
>... and it's NOT $500 here in the US, so let's be accurate to not drift 
>into more anti-Ameritron bashing. QSL OM?
>
>73 de Billy, AA4NU
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP
>>Yes, you are correct, but when you add the terribly expensive external 
>>circuits, the amp no longer attempts to follow CW keying with its 
>>internal relay.  The Ameritron amps can only run clean QSK with a $500 
>>add-on, which my experience has been, are not real reliable.  My 
>>experience is based on personal use for a few years, and knowledge of 
>>experience of several other members of my contesting club.
>>
>>If you want to run QSK at more than about 10 wpm, it would be better 
>>to purchase an amplifier with a high speed T/R relay.  There are 
>>plenty of them on the market.
>>
>>I personally switched to a QSK Technologies amplifier.  In fact I 
>>bought two of them.  Never had any problems with them.
>>
>>Today I only have an older Ameritron (clone), the SB-1000, and I just 
>>don't run "full" QSK.  For contests I set the timing such that I can 
>>hear between words.  IMO, there is no tangible loss of functionality 
>>compared to full QSK.
>>For normal non-contest QSOs I run about 1 second hang delay, which 
>>helps me keep what little bit of sanity I still have left.
>>
>>73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>>(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Brian 
>>Carling
>>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:03 PM
>>To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>>Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
>>
>>Yes, but I think a lot of radio amateurs using good QSK Rigs like the 
>>Tentec have managed to convert their amplifiers for QSK operation by 
>>adding a circuitboard like the QSK 1500 or the QSK5.
>>
>>I realize that is more than just a simple homebrewer undertaking.
>>
>>Best regards - Bry Carling
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:51 AM, "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" 
>>wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's not quite that simple, at least not always.
>>> 
>>> "IF" your amplifier has a very fast T/R relay, such as a vacuum 
>>> relay, then you are correct; a few simple switching transistors and 
>>> a tiny relay will do the trick.  But that only works when the main 
>>> T/R relay is fast enough to follow CW keying.
>>> 
>>> If instead you have an amplifier whose T/R relay needs 20 mS to 
>>> switch, AND you connect the hand-shaking just as the Ten-Tec keying 
>>> loop normally works, the CW is not going to be very smooth.  Timing 
>>> will get screwed up.  The open-frame relays are just too slow to do 
>>> that.  The only way to make them work is to have hang delay such 
>>> that they
>>don't need to follow the keying.
>>> The Ten-Tec hand-shaking does not do this.
>>> 
>>> And then if you have to work with hang delay, you don't need the 
>>> complexity of the hand-shaking.  You just need sufficient pre-dit 
>>> delay and adjustable hang delay - but you sacrifice true QSK.
>>> TRUE QSK?  
>>> You never had it in the first place because you did not buy a QSK
>>amplifier!
>>> 
>>> No matter what you feed a mule or how you treat it, it will never be 
>>> a race horse!
>>> 
>>> (On the other hand, not everybody needs or wants a race horse and 
>>> mules are wonderful animals!)
>>> 
>>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
>>> 
>>> -------------------------
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
>>> bcarling at cfl.rr.com
>>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
>>> 
>>> I have to wonder why some guys will spend $500 for an external 
>>> accessory to do QSK with their linear amplifier.  The system in my 
>>> TT
>>> 422 is so simple. A couple of simple boards and a relay.
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