[TenTec] QSK or not?

[bcarling at cfl.rr.com]

Rick - I would say that the 813 is also a great valve.

You used to be able to buy them for $20.- 30 each not too long ago,
but because they are out of production ver few manufacturers still want to use them.

805 used to be a rather fine bottle too.

Brian, AF4K (Ex-G3XLQ)

On 20 Mar 2014 at 20:40, Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP wrote:

> Billy,
> 
> When were you an SWL in DL?  And where?
> I was also an SWL in DL as a kid.
> That was 1959 to 1962.  QTH was Zweibrucken, near the French border.
> I would have gotten on the air but in Germany we had to be 18 and I was just
> a very early teenager.
> 
> The relay trick you mentioned was indeed good.  It effectively doubled the
> voltage applied to the T/R relay just for an instant, speeding it up
> considerably.  It almost immediately reverted to normal voltage to prevent
> any damage to the relay.  In fact, in consideration of the fact that TEN-TEC
> does not delay the first dit long enough for the Ameritron relays, it's a
> great idea to use this circuit with Ameritron amps (if you don't have the
> QSK-5 option).
> 
> YES, the open frame relays are now a bit faster than they formerly were, but
> the current real life switching time, including settling time and/or delay
> added from reverse diode is "20mS".  This was measured within the last 10
> days on a brand new AL-80B by Bob, K4TAX.
> 
> I agree the point on filtering to solve some of the PIN diode issues.
> However I guarantee you that you won't get anyone in our club (over 400
> members) to go back to PIN-Diode switching.  Our club members are fanatics
> (as I used to be) and spend a lot of time and money planning their contest
> expeditions.  In the past, PIN diodes caused us a lot of grief.  Vacuum
> relays wear out after a long time, but they usually do not die prematurely.
> 
> 
> Quality of tubes is a very serious problem.  More than most people realize.
> The only tube I really like besides the 3-500z and the 3CX-1200Z is the
> 572B.  Recently, for several months RF Parts could not even deliver any
> decent 572Bs, and now they say "limited stock, please call". Good quality
> tubes are scarce.  I still have one brand new (boxed) 3-500z from Amperex.
> I've had it for over 20 years - just in case. Based on my experience (sorry,
> there I go again - hi), that should cover my needs for the rest of my life.
> I have to add that I do not abuse my amps.  I run my 3-500z at about 600w.
> They last forever that way!
> 
> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Billy Cox
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:02 PM
> To: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP; 'Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment'
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
> 
> Hi Rick, and I enjoy following your posts!
> 
> I was a SWL in DL land as a kid and was
> amazed at some of the signals there, so
> do understand the challenges a wee bit,
> glad to know things are improving there.
> 
> Several years ago I believe Ameritron did change the original (SLOW) relay
> to a newer design. As mine use the QSK board, which means the T/R relay is
> always in "T", I have not considered changing them out. 
> 
> Adding the QSK board was a cleaner/quicker option for me than as Gary
> mentioned in his post, adding someone's custom idea to an amp.
> 
> One of the contest clubs, YCCC? came up with a way to speed the old stock
> relay but even that would NOT be fast enough for true QSK.
> 
> Much of the PIN "QRM" can be addressed with filtering/bypassing, as SO2R has
> some of the same challenges as M/M with lots of close RF.
> 
> The AL1200 is a good amp, not perfect and it's tube replacement cost
> continues to rise. So far, there's not been a need to have to do that yet.
> 
> Probably the best tubes today for most of us, are either the 3-500Z new or
> the 8877 sourced as a reliable "pull". Sadly the quality of many other RF
> tubes has become an adventure in risk.
> 
> That is all part of learning and understanding how things really work, ...
> or should/could work and that makes this hobby so enjoyable at times.
> 
> (BTW, these posts regarding QSK are encouraging as to one more sign that CW
> is not going away.)
> 
> Have a great weekend there Rick!
> 
> 73 de Billy, AA4NU
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP
> >Hi Billy,
> >
> >Nice to hear from you again.  Indeed the AL-1200 is a wonderful amplifier!
> >
> >I did say "my experience", and that is based on personal ownership as 
> >well as lots of friends, members of my contest club, who had similar
> experience.
> >
> >BTW, it's more than $500 over here.  Average?  $500 is a fair comment.
> >
> >In addition we have always had a problem here in Europe with the 
> >shortwave broadcast stations.  You guys heard them, but they were 60 
> >over 9 here, and the sum of the voltage hitting our rigs sometimes 
> >caused the PIN-Diodes to cause IMD in the receivers.  That not only 
> >affected this type of amp, but also things like the Alpha amps.  Our club
> members got rid of them.
> >
> >Fortunately that Intermod problem has mostly gone away since the 
> >broadcast stations moved outside of the 40m band...except of course 
> >on-site of a multi-multi operation.
> >
> >The AL-1200 is indeed a lovely amplifier and would be my first choice 
> >(by
> >far) if we were allowed 1500w here, but I would immediately throw out 
> >its open-frame relay and install a decent vacuum relay.  I wouldn't 
> >mess around with the PIN-Diodes.
> >We are limited to just 750w, so I stick with the 3-500z.
> >
> >73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> >(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Billy 
> >Cox
> >Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:41 PM
> >To: Billy Cox; Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment; 'Discussion of Ten-Tec 
> >Equipment'
> >Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
> >
> >Really Rick, that a rather subjective statement? So let's allow for 
> >other's experiences too as I have run a pair of
> >AL-1200 amps here with the internal QSK board for over 20 years of 
> >DXing and contesting QSOs, each driven by various brands/models of gear 
> >and different guest ops with * NO * design related problems.
> >
> >So there's another subjective statement to ponder! B-) B-)
> >
> >... and it's NOT $500 here in the US, so let's be accurate to not drift 
> >into more anti-Ameritron bashing. QSL OM?
> >
> >73 de Billy, AA4NU
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP
> >>Yes, you are correct, but when you add the terribly expensive external 
> >>circuits, the amp no longer attempts to follow CW keying with its 
> >>internal relay.  The Ameritron amps can only run clean QSK with a $500 
> >>add-on, which my experience has been, are not real reliable.  My 
> >>experience is based on personal use for a few years, and knowledge of 
> >>experience of several other members of my contesting club.
> >>
> >>If you want to run QSK at more than about 10 wpm, it would be better 
> >>to purchase an amplifier with a high speed T/R relay.  There are 
> >>plenty of them on the market.
> >>
> >>I personally switched to a QSK Technologies amplifier.  In fact I 
> >>bought two of them.  Never had any problems with them.
> >>
> >>Today I only have an older Ameritron (clone), the SB-1000, and I just 
> >>don't run "full" QSK.  For contests I set the timing such that I can 
> >>hear between words.  IMO, there is no tangible loss of functionality 
> >>compared to full QSK.
> >>For normal non-contest QSOs I run about 1 second hang delay, which 
> >>helps me keep what little bit of sanity I still have left.
> >>
> >>73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> >>(Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Brian 
> >>Carling
> >>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:03 PM
> >>To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
> >>Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
> >>
> >>Yes, but I think a lot of radio amateurs using good QSK Rigs like the 
> >>Tentec have managed to convert their amplifiers for QSK operation by 
> >>adding a circuitboard like the QSK 1500 or the QSK5.
> >>
> >>I realize that is more than just a simple homebrewer undertaking.
> >>
> >>Best regards - Bry Carling
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mar 20, 2014, at 11:51 AM, "Rick - DJ0IP / NJ0IP" 
> >>wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> It's not quite that simple, at least not always.
> >>> 
> >>> "IF" your amplifier has a very fast T/R relay, such as a vacuum 
> >>> relay, then you are correct; a few simple switching transistors and 
> >>> a tiny relay will do the trick.  But that only works when the main 
> >>> T/R relay is fast enough to follow CW keying.
> >>> 
> >>> If instead you have an amplifier whose T/R relay needs 20 mS to 
> >>> switch, AND you connect the hand-shaking just as the Ten-Tec keying 
> >>> loop normally works, the CW is not going to be very smooth.  Timing 
> >>> will get screwed up.  The open-frame relays are just too slow to do 
> >>> that.  The only way to make them work is to have hang delay such 
> >>> that they
> >>don't need to follow the keying.
> >>> The Ten-Tec hand-shaking does not do this.
> >>> 
> >>> And then if you have to work with hang delay, you don't need the 
> >>> complexity of the hand-shaking.  You just need sufficient pre-dit 
> >>> delay and adjustable hang delay - but you sacrifice true QSK.
> >>> TRUE QSK?  
> >>> You never had it in the first place because you did not buy a QSK
> >>amplifier!
> >>> 
> >>> No matter what you feed a mule or how you treat it, it will never be 
> >>> a race horse!
> >>> 
> >>> (On the other hand, not everybody needs or wants a race horse and 
> >>> mules are wonderful animals!)
> >>> 
> >>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
> >>> (Nr. Frankfurt am Main)
> >>> 
> >>> -------------------------
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of 
> >>> bcarling at cfl.rr.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [TenTec] QSK or not?
> >>> 
> >>> I have to wonder why some guys will spend $500 for an external 
> >>> accessory to do QSK with their linear amplifier.  The system in my 
> >>> TT
> >>> 422 is so simple. A couple of simple boards and a relay.
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> >
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