Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"

[w7dra at juno.com]

this brings back a lot of memories..........i arrived on rarotonga a week
after a French Dxpidition did, who was set up in the K2KW motel room with
vertical antennas on the beach just as you would imagine. the motel
management said she was sorry, and set me up in a cottage (from the same
motel) on the other side of the island for me and my venerable HW-16, now
connected to a 400 foot long wire to a 100(?) foot high palm tree. i was
across a road to the beach (75 feet from the shore?), but could on 160m
easily hear the USA 579 two hours before sunset

mike ZK1DRA (then)

yes, my HW-16 works on 160-20m


On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 18:55:46 -0700 "Hardy Landskov" <n7rt at cox.net>
writes:
> Yuri,
> I don't think K3LR, W3LPL could afford that kind of property to 
> begin with 
> plus they have to work and have families and all of that. It is nice 
> to do 
> that kind of thing on DXPD's but I would not want to live there.
> My final 2 cents....I vote we move on.
> 73 N7RT
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Yuri Blanarovich" <k3bu at optimum.net>
> To: <topband at contesting.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a beach"
> 
> 
> > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 08:14 PM, Tom W8JI wrote:
> >
> > >
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yuri Blanarovich" To: Sent: 
> Tuesday, 
> >> August 12, 2014 4:50 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Topband: Modeling the proverbial "vertical on a 
> beach"
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Oh, here comes the "guru" again. :-)
> >>
> >> Is that immature stuff really necessary?
> >>
> > Subject of effect of ground, salt water front was discussed, some 
> 
> > experiences were mentioned, but you judge it "unnecessary" and 
> "feelings". 
> > We have been there before: first you don't believe it, deny it, 
> then when 
> > convinced that you were wrong, you go quiet for a while, and then 
> you 
> > "discover" the stuff and post article on your web site, like it 
> was your 
> > invention all along. I have been biting my pen, but sometimes 
> stuff just 
> > slips out. Looks like nothing new. Maybe there is a help by 
> bringing it 
> > up.
> > So, here we go again:
> >
> >>> Unnecessary debate? We are talking about experiences and RESULTS 
> of 
> >>> comparing normal in land "ground" effect vs. salt water beach or 
> 
> >>> marshes. We are commenting on the benefit of immediate proximity 
> of salt 
> >>> water to antenna performance, especially on low angles.
> >>> K3BU and others found out that it is not "feeling," but S-meter 
> readings 
> >>> in order of 10 - 20 dB (RX and TX!) in favor of salty beach. It 
> is like 
> >>> driving inside into the amplifier
> >>
> >> Perhaps you can explain why VOA and others willingly gave up that 
> 10-20 
> >> dB, and how K3LR and W3LPL do so well inland, when they pay a 
> 10-20 dB 
> >> penalty for communications?
> >>
> >
> > Ask VOA engineers how they chose their locations. I see why WOO - 
> RCA and 
> > AT&T engineers chose their site in Ocean Gate, NJ on some 240 
> acres of 
> > salty marshes, and how they dominated overseas comms.
> > K3LR and W3LPL knowingly chose inland sites, because they don't 
> need extra 
> > dBs? Comparing results to which beach station? Maybe operators 
> have 
> > something to do with it?
> > Using scores between comparable stations gives some indication. 
> But the 
> > real test is the observation of signals in said locations. Simple 
> test of 
> > driving around in the mobile demonstrates the effect. WRTC 2014 
> > disqualified few sites because they were too good, they did the 
> tests and 
> > those too close for salty comfort were not used in order to keep 
> things 
> > more equal (for the inland locations that were available).
> >
> >
> >> One would think if there was a 10-20 db penalty, it would show on 
> 
> >> skimmers and that W2GD would be unbeatable being on the water. 
> I'm sure 
> >> I'm missing something. What is it I am missing?
> >>
> > It is not penalty, it is advantage. It all depends how one takes 
> advantage 
> > of the effect and how good operator(s) are. You are missing 
> getting into 
> > the car, drive to Cape Hatteras and observe S-meter while driving 
> close 
> > to, or away from the salt water or over the bridges. You are also 
> 
> > overlooking experiences of experienced contesters commenting on 
> the effect 
> > and calling it unnecessary debate and feelings.
> > It is not easy to find beachfront property suitable for station, 
> but it is 
> > rewarding to get 10 - 20 dB on RX and TX for "free" if one can. I 
> got 
> > convinced and have seen the results and still have few records, 
> even if 
> > anecdotal from XJ3ZZ/1 St. Paul, from VE1ZZ, N2EE/4, TF4X, WOO 
> site, etc. 
> > Others have described their enhancements too, so it is not fairy 
> tale.
> >
> > Hope it helps.
> >
> > Yuri, K3BU.us
> >
> >
> >> Thanks, Tom
> >>
> >> _________________
> >> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> >>
> > _________________
> > Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband 
> 
> 
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> 

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