Topband: circular polarization on 160m -BTW

Wed Feb 12 16:43:16 EST 2014

I used it on 1296 a bit over 30 years ago, however both ends have to agree 
on which rotation they will use. I suspect it is more standardized now.

And a lot easier to make power than a ring of 7289's with water jackets 
added!

Carl
KM1H

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charlie Cunningham" <charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com>
To: "'Joel Harrison'" <w5zn at w5zn.org>
Cc: <dado at prijedor.com>; <topband at contesting.com>; "'Tom W8JI'" 
<w8ji at w8ji.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: Topband: circular polarization on 160m -BTW

> Thanks, Joel! That makes perfect sense to me! I don’t keep up with EME, as
> I’m an HF CW DXer, but it seemed that the EME guys might use circular
> polarization to contend with the Faraday Rotation in Earth’s atmosphere,
> from my spacecraft days of long ago! Thanks!
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> Charlie, K4OTV
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Joel Harrison [mailto:w5zn at w5zn.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 2:14 PM
> To: Charlie Cunningham
> Cc: Tom W8JI; dado at prijedor.com; topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: circular polarization on 160m -BTW
>
>
>
> Yes, on some of the bands circular polarization is used for EME
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Charlie Cunningham
> <charlie-cunningham at nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> BTW - does anyone know if the EME boys employ circular polarization?
>
> 73,
> Charlie, K4OTV
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> Cunningham
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:35 PM
> To: 'Tom W8JI'; dado at prijedor.com; topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: circular polarization on 160m
>
> Hello all,
>
> My original post regarding circular polarization receiving antennas for 
> 160
> was posted 2/2/2014 as a comment on Bill, VE3CSK's post regarding his
> observation of apparent rapid polarization shifts in the signal received
> from FT5ZM, on Amsteram Island at their sunrise. Bill was using his K3 in
> diversity mode to observe the apparent rapid polarization shifts by using
> both  vertical and  horizontal receive antennas. The rapid apparent
> polarization shifts seemed quite different from the slower QSB that we 
> often
> experience on 160. I post my original hurried off-hand comment and Bill's
> post below;
>
> "I wonder what circular-polarized RX antennas might have to offer on 160?
>
> Charlie, K4OTV
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill 
> and
> Liz
> Sent: Sunday, February 02, 2014 8:37 PM
> To: topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Topband: FT5ZM SIGNAL
>
> I have been listening several evenings now on 160M using my K3 in 
> diversity
> mode with the TX vertical array on one receiver and a full-wave horizontal
> loop on the other.  I have been struck by the often rapid change in the
> signal as received on one antenna or the other.  As sunrise on Amsterdam
> approaches this shift becomes quite rapid, with the recovered signal
> bouncing back and forth ear to ear.  Early on, before I began listening in
> diversity mode, I thought it was rapid QSB taking the signal down into the
> noise but now realize that it is the angle of the arriving signal which is
> rapidly changing over the path.
>
> No wonder some of the guys have been having problems copying/working the
> expedition on topband!
>
> Bill VE3CSK"
>
> This seemed to provoke an interesting, lively and informative discussion 
> by
> a number of people who have explored 160m ionosphere  propagation in far
> greater depth than I have. Some of the commentary piqued my interest and
> caused me to want to do some more research! Thanks guys, and thanks, Tom,
> for your recent postings of your recordings from KH6AT etc.! Rather
> informative and thought-provoking!
>
> I must confess that all of my experience with circular polarization has 
> been
> at UHF (400 MHz range) for spacecraft telemetry and 1.4 GHz for GPS
> signals.  In these cases circular polarization is employed to contend with
> the Faraday Rotation of signals as they propagate through Earth's
> atmosphere. These signals generally originate beyond the ionosphere except
> for a few birds that might pass through the "magneto-tail" on the lee-side
> (dark-side) of earth away from the solar wind. Very different from 160m
> signals that originate on Earth's surface and are reflected from an
> ionization layer in the ionosphere!
>
> Bill's observations are really interesting and seem to suggest something
> other than the usual slow fades that we are used to on topband. Surely
> piqued my curiosity!
>
> I would think that with proper phase control one could construct circular
> polarized 160m receive antennas that could be less than full-size if 
> preamps
> were employed. It's interesting to consider that such an antenna would
> probably be RHCP in one direction and LHCP in the opposite direction! If I
> wasn't so disabled at present, I' be tempted to build something to
> experiment  with, just because I miss building experimenting with and
> measuring antennas! Very enjoyable
> activities for me!
>
> Anyway, thanks all for all the commentary and insightful and
> thought-provoking discussions!  Bill's observations seem to suggest
> something different at work that may deserve some further investigation 
> and
> exploration!  That led me to wondering about circular polarization, or
> perhaps some rapid high-speed commutation between horizontally polarized 
> and
> vertically polarized receive antennas. Thanks!
>
> 73,
> Charlie, K4OTV
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom 
> W8JI
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 10:41 AM
> To: dado at prijedor.com; topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: circular polarization on 160m
>
> Here are some pictures and a sound file or two...
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/HF%20circular%20polarization.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dado at prijedor.com>
> To: <topband at contesting.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 6:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Topband: circular polarization on 160m
>
>
>>
>>
>> hi Guys,
>>
>> interesting discussion
>>
>> If want, hear this file,
>>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8I6Nck0GwTdYTI0MzVkY2QtYjUyYS00YmE3LTk4NTk
> tNWVlNzE2ZGFiYmE1/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> this is E74AW and OZ1LXJ recording of ZL3IX, at same time, John was
>> so kind and sinchronise those two audio recordings together in one file,
>>
>>
>> will hear how QSB is different on different station, when peak is on
>> my side, deep gos to John and VV
>>
>> thanks, 73 cul dado E74AW
>>
>> Дана
>> 06.02.2014 06:21, James Wolf је написао:
>>
>>> Jose,
>>>
>>> I am only
>> presenting the possibility that if the ionosphere (where 160
>>>
>> propagation happens) isn't uniformly smooth and instead consists of
>> "warps,
>>> wrinkles and tilts" that in a *dynamic ionosphere*, this could
>> be at least
>>> one reason we are experiencing slow fades.
>>>
>>> Elliptical
>> polarization, assuming that it is ever changing, could provide
>>> yet
>> another degree of selective fading.
>>>
>>> I'm don't think I *totally*
>> understand why KL7AJ says that "at HF the
>>> ionosphere forbids the
>> propagation of linearly polarized signals". If at
>>> the magnetic
>> equator, and signals were East to West to equal the earth
>>> magnetic
>> tilt of the signals, it seems that at an instance in time that a
>>>
>> linear polarized signal could happen. But that may be nit picking.
>>>
>>>
>> Jim - KR9U
>>>
>>> From: JC N4IS [mailto:n4is at comcast.net]
>>> Sent:
>> Wednesday, February 05, 2014 10:45 PM
>>> To: jbwolf at comcast.net; 'Tom
>> W8JI'; herbs at vitelcom.net;
>>> topband at contesting.com
>>> Subject: RE:
>> Topband: circular polarization on 160m
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> You brought a
>> good article about HF propagation, however the behavor on 160m
>>> is
>> different from HF. If you check on the KL7A arcticle figure 1 what is
>>>
>> happening between 1 and 2 MHz you can see that the green and red does
>> not
>>> behaivor the same way as above 2 MHz.
>>>
>>> This subject is more
>> complex because there us no shirt answer, actualy
>>> between 1 and 2 MHz.
>> the ionosphere does not support linear polariration
>>> wave. The wave are
>> actualy eliptical and not circular for most directions.
>>>
>>> You can
>> check the long answer on the "must read book" from NM7M . R Brown
>>> 'The
>> Big Gun's Guied to Low Band Propagation" . Magneto-iomic Theory pag 47
>>>
>> to 56 ; and Power coupling pag 57.
>>>
>>> Thanks to Karl. K9LA, the book
>> is available on his also must read site on
>>> the 160m link
>>>
>>>
>> http://k9la.us/html/160m.html [1]
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> JC
>>>
>>> N4IS
>>>
>>>
>> _________________
>>> Topband Reflector Archives -
>> http://www.contesting.com/_topband [2]
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://k9la.us/html/160m.html
>> [2] http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>> _________________
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>
>
>
> -- 
> 73 Joel W5ZN
>
> www.w5zn.org
>
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> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
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