Topband: antenna analyzers
AC0RL
ac0rl at yahoo.com
Fri Oct 12 15:02:00 EDT 2018
In response to:
Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put
up the Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups
for my raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my
tail around to get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or
subtracting length of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it
seems the more I work at it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to
punt by rechecking my Rig Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make
sure it read right...it did.
I have found that antenna analyzers can get screwed up on long antennas if
there are nearby transmitters; AM stations or any other transmitter that can
swamp out the input to the analyzer. I live 1/4 mile from a 1kw am station
and I cannot use any brand of analyzer on the HF bands. I must use a SWR
bridge and a transmitter.
Jerry Kahn
AC0RL
-----Original Message-----
From: Topband [mailto:topband-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
topband-request at contesting.com
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:00 AM
To: topband at contesting.com
Subject: Topband Digest, Vol 190, Issue 9
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Today's Topics:
1. PreStew coming up soon (Tree)
2. trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (terry burge)
3. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (Wayne Kline)
4. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
(daraymond at iowatelecom.net)
5. Re: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square (Guy Olinger K2AV)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:30:28 -0700
From: Tree <tree at kkn.net>
To: 160 <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: PreStew coming up soon
Message-ID:
<CAKF9HhakcU37muGxmQSVu-frDTy7NtaMdnudyPZCzdzMY8ybLg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
This weekend is the last full weekend to get your antennas QRV for the
PreStew coming up on October 20th at 1500Z.
At the home station of the Boring Amateur Radio club - my antenna currently
is not complete. I have a new 97 foot tower with a full sized Steppir
Monster on top and have laid down the first two radials. Will be working
hard this weekend getting the radial count up and figuring out the gamma
match to load the tower. The tower and antenna is the same configuration I
had running at my temporary QTH during the past three years. It required
some top loading when used with the elements retracted - about 50 feet or
wire. So I am guessing I can deal with the extra tower height by reducing
the length of the loading wire at the top of the tower.
The Hi-Z 4 square antenna has not been deployed yet either... so that will
be on the list after getting the TX antenna setup. Beverages will have to
wait until December since there is just too much to be done and not enough
time.
The complete results from the BigStew are in process. We have enlisted the
help of Guy, K2AV, to figure out the plaque winners. We should have them
posted shortly after the PreStew and then you can prepare yourself for the
posts from W7EW organizing the sponsors for the plaques for the December
event.
Rules and other stuff at http://www.kkn.net/stew
73 Tree N6TR / K7RAT
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 15:11:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: terry burge <ki7m at comcast.net>
To: topband at contesting.com, terry burge <ki7m at comcast.net>
Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Message-ID: <1643722037.144373.1539295897478 at connect.xfinity.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Hello Guys and Gals,
Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the
Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my
raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to
get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length
of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at
it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig
Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did.
The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to
rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the
Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200'
back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs
from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple
ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns.
Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the
shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5,
3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to
the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig
Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting
them
Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16
RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm
R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm
C: 52000 nF up and down
R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm
second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07
RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms
R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms
L: 2.2 nH
R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high)
L:|| same infinity
And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this
morning....
3860 Khz
resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1
R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms
R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1
c: infinity
R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down
C|| 8pF
How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down
a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where
the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by
this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles
length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising
and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much.
I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna
because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles!
After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the
SE sloper.
3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 ,
3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 ,
3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see
what I mean?
Terry
KI7M
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:03:49 +0000
From: Wayne Kline <w3ea at hotmail.com>
To: terry burge <ki7m at comcast.net>, "topband at contesting.com"
<topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Message-ID:
<SN2PR20MB08776EF8351DCAC56D785B478FE10 at SN2PR20MB0877.namprd20.prod.outlook.
com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Terry,
I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ?
With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a
meaningful reading.
If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM
cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ
will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed .
Wayne W3EA
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10
________________________________
From: Topband <topband-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge
<ki7m at comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM
To: topband at contesting.com; terry burge
Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Hello Guys and Gals,
Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the
Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my
raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to
get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length
of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at
it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig
Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did.
The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to
rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the
Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200'
back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs
from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple
ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns.
Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the
shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5,
3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to
the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig
Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting
them
Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16
RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm
R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm
C: 52000 nF up and down
R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm
second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07
RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms
R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms
L: 2.2 nH
R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high)
L:|| same infinity
And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this
morning....
3860 Khz
resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1
R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms
R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1
c: infinity
R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down
C|| 8pF
How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down
a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where
the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by
this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles
length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising
and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much.
I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna
because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles!
After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the
SE sloper.
3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 ,
3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 ,
3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see
what I mean?
Terry
KI7M
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 19:14:35 -0500
From: <daraymond at iowatelecom.net>
To: "Wayne Kline" <w3ea at hotmail.com>, "terry burge"
<ki7m at comcast.net>, <topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Message-ID: <FCC82990D50C43EDBB6B33831F5728BA at DavidBrentPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
reply-type=original
Yes, install ONE sloper. . .measure and cut to resonance. Duplicate that
measurement for the other three. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS
-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Kline
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:03 PM
To: terry burge ; topband at contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Terry,
I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ?
With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a
meaningful reading.
If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM
cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ
will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed .
Wayne W3EA
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
10
________________________________
From: Topband <topband-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge
<ki7m at comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM
To: topband at contesting.com; terry burge
Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Hello Guys and Gals,
Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the
Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for my
raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around to
get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length
of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work at
it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig
Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it did.
The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to
rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the
Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about 175-200'
back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs
from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple
ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns.
Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the
shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5,
3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close to
the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig
Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting
them
Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16
RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm
R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm
C: 52000 nF up and down
R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm
second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07
RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms
R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms
L: 2.2 nH
R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high)
L:|| same infinity
And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this
morning....
3860 Khz
resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1
R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms
R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1
c: infinity
R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down
C|| 8pF
How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance down
a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where
the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since by
this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles
length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried raising
and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much.
I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an antenna
because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles!
After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the
SE sloper.
3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 ,
3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 ,
3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see
what I mean?
Terry
KI7M
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
_________________
Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 23:29:17 -0400
From: Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av.guy at gmail.com>
To: David Raymond <daraymond at iowatelecom.net>
Cc: w3ea at hotmail.com, terry burge <ki7m at comcast.net>, TopBand List
<topband at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
Message-ID:
<CANckpc0fcZF4tg4HcVSJ5RHNW7W6fS2=7QP2KTmUcaW+pX7oww at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Essential point that might be missed: each one of the elements, one at a
time, must be tuned independently with the other three elements down. This
is the initial tuning. If when everything hooked up characteristics are OK
then you?re done.
Finish initial tuning and it's *not* OK? To slide the ARRAY center freq up
or down, there are several methods:
1) Redo the initial one at a time tuning with an opposite-to-the-error
adjustment to the one at a time tuning target frequency.
2) make *small* identical wire length changes to all four elements at the
same time.
3) If you're an engineer and have the equipment and design software,
redesign the box to work with what you have. ?
Just remember that the elements of a four square are very heavily coupled
to each other, regardless that all are driven from the control box. The
final result is a complex function of the driven current AND the effects of
the heavy mutual coupling between elements.
73, and good luck,
Guy K2AV
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 8:15 PM <daraymond at iowatelecom.net> wrote:
> Yes, install ONE sloper. . .measure and cut to resonance. Duplicate that
> measurement for the other three. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wayne Kline
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:03 PM
> To: terry burge ; topband at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
>
> Terry,
>
>
>
> I assume you only installed ONE sloper and made your measurements ?
>
>
>
> With all 4 installed there is way to much mutual coupling to get a
> meaningful reading.
>
>
>
> If your readings were from only ONE antenna tuned with a length of 50 OHM
> cable at it?s feed point and trimmed to your desired freq. and that FREQ
> will rise about 80 to 120 KC when the 4 are installed .
>
>
>
> Wayne W3EA
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows
> 10
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Topband <topband-bounces at contesting.com> on behalf of terry burge
> <ki7m at comcast.net>
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:11:37 PM
> To: topband at contesting.com; terry burge
> Subject: Topband: trying to tune up 80 meter 4-Square
>
> Hello Guys and Gals,
>
>
> Recently Tree did some work for me and one of the things was to put up the
> Comtek 80 meter 4-Square switching unit and a couple of pulley setups for
> my
> raising of the 80 meter slopers. Lately I've been chasing my tail around
> to
> get them dipped in around 3700-3750 Khz. Been adding or subtracting length
> of the slopers to bring them into resonance but it seems the more I work
> at
> it the worse things get. Today I dropped back to punt by rechecking my Rig
> Experts AA-170 with a 50 ohm load just to make sure it read right...it
did.
>
>
> The sloper dipoles are MFJ 1779B's 'trim to length' except one I had to
> rebuild with a hy-que center SO-239. RG-213 from the switching unit to the
> Rig Expert and when put together using a long run of LMR-400 about
> 175-200'
> back to the shack. 75 ohm DXE foam RG-11/u coax quarter wavelength stubs
> from switching unit to each dipole center. Each 75 ohm stub has multiple
> ferrite snap on's 5 or 6 to form current baluns.
>
>
> Here is an example. SE sloper, read SWR of 3875-3850 Khz of 1.0:1 in the
> shack on Elecraft W2 wattmeter. 3799 Khz SWR 1.3, 3775 Khz 1.4, 3750 1.5,
> 3725 1.5, 3700-3650 1.7...Added 19" each end and it seemed to read close
> to
> the same resonance! Added 24" more each end and this time used the Rig
> Experts to check it out. Got two dips but not even where I was expecting
> them
>
>
> Resonacne 4680 Khz SWR 1.16
>
> RL 23.3 dB |Z| 57.4 ohm
>
> R: 57.5 ohms X: 10.7 ohm
>
> C: 52000 nF up and down
>
>
> R:: 57.9 ohm XLL -4878 ohm
>
>
> second dip at 2169 Khz SWR 1.07
>
> RL 28.0 dB |Z| 46.5 ohms
>
> R: 46.5 ohms x: 0.2/0.4 ohms
>
> L: 2.2 nH
>
> R:: 46.4 ohm X|| (infinity or very high)
>
> L:|| same infinity
>
>
> And the frequency where I was trying to drop down from when I begain this
> morning....
>
>
> 3860 Khz
>
> resonance now 3984 Khz SWR 1.8:1
>
> R: 10.9 dB |Z| 27.9 ohms
>
> R: 27.9 ohms x: -0.1
>
> c: infinity
>
> R|| 27.8 ohms X|| -48000 up and down
>
> C|| 8pF
>
>
> How can I add almost 4' of wire on each end and not drop the resonance
> down
> a couple hundred Khz? What is with the two dips way above and below where
> the 128' sloper should be resonating? That is an approximate length since
> by
> this time and several days of adjusting I'm not sure what each dipoles
> length are. Since I have a 40 meter dipole near the slopers I tried
> raising
> and lowering about 10-15' up and down but it did not seem to change much.
> I'm beginning to instinctively cringe each time I have to tune up an
> antenna
> because this is what I know I'm in for. Especially with dipoles!
>
>
> After all this I just made another run of the SWR across the band with the
> SE sloper.
>
> 3550 Khz 1.7:1 , 3600 Khz 1.7 , 3650 2.0 , 3700 1.7 , 3750 1.7 ,
> 3795 1.5 , 3825 1.3 ,
>
>
> 3850 1.1 , 3875 1.0 , 3900 1.1 , 3925 1.3 , 3950 1.5 ?..see
> what I mean?
>
>
> Terry
>
> KI7M
>
>
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
> _________________
> Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
>
------------------------------
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