[TowerTalk] Location
WD4K
Ttow1 at Charter.net
Mon Apr 7 16:27:22 EDT 2003
To Steve (LXC)and Jerry (K3BZ)..Extremely well said. Most of these folks do
not seem to understand the major difference in agents (affiliate brokers)
and real Brokers. I am the latter. The difference is between a first year
college student and the Broker with Masters or MBA type specialized
education in this field. You must understand that the agents or (affiliate
brokers) work for the Broker. No agent can be free lancing--EVER--they are
required by law to be under the direct supervision of the Broker or Managing
Broker.
To ALL of the hams reading this--I am obviously a ham AND a Broker so I see
both sides. Do yourself a favor and when you call a company, ask for the
Broker. There are many levels of education such as Graduate Realtor
Institute, Certified Residential Specialist, Certified Residential Broker
and the CCIM commercial designation. Check these guys out. The Broker is THE
one with the experience and educational requirements to help you. They must
have years of experience BEFORE they can even sit for the Broker exam, plus
multi layer State approved educational requirements including law classes
and contract specific classes. This is the Realtors equivalent of the
Attorneys bar exam. It is tough. Every month I get reports of agents being
fined, losing licenses etc. for breaches in their professionalism. We are
very tightly regulated and in this case that is a good thing for both the
Realtor and the consumer. Most (but not all)of the Brokers I know are
terrific because they have the experience, education and equally as
important; they know the ramifications and legal recourse if they do not
follow the laws and regulations.
My daughter will graduate from MTSU in two weeks with a Realtor license. Is
she a wonderful honest person who will really try to do a good job in her
new career? YES! Is she qualified and experienced enough to take on your
ham needs AND the most expensive buying decision for your family..absolutely
not..without help from an experienced "elmer". Much of what Jerry says is
true about the tactics of agents. They are taught basics of sales and
listings and they, like we radio guys need time to learn and grow under the
guidence of a good Broker. That said, with the immediate and unusual needs
of our group, you would be well served to seek the services of a more
experienced Realtor.
I agree with Steve especially about the importance of this topic when it
concerns your family's home and our hobby which is also very important. This
is serious, expensive and has great future impact for those dreaming of a
great home and qth. You're going to live with your decisions for a long
time.
The basic knowledge of what to ask and with whom to work on these matters is
vitally important to a happy outcome. I hope some of this information helps
some of you to realize your ideal qth. 73, Tommy WD4K
-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
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Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:26 PM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 4, Issue 14
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Today's Topics:
1. TowerTalk Digest, Vol 4, Issue 12 (W1GOR)
2. mid-point loaded beam elements (Pete Smith)
3. Re: mid-point loaded beam elements
4. Re: baloon supported wire ve (Sibilja Mirko)
5. Re: Location
6. Re: mid-point loaded beam elements (Jim Lux)
7. Re: re location
8. Re: Location (Dan Arney)
9. Re: Location (Jerry K3BZ)
10. Re: [Force 12 Talk] WRC 2/2 Over a C3SS/C4SS? (Harris)
11. Re: baloon supported wire verticals (j.a.hermans)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:55:39 -0400
From: "W1GOR" <W1GOR at Maine.RR.Com>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 4, Issue 12
Message-ID: <00bb01c2fd26$893176a0$4059d2cc at maine.rr.com>
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> Can we please move on to a different topic?
>
> This discussion (?) has gone too far and serves no purpose. Let the G
> station, who started this topic, find out about realtors and real estate
> on another forum.
>
> W8JWN
>
> ------------------------------
I second the motion... Thanks to W8JWN... BACK TO TOWERTALK...!
vy 73 de Larry - W1GOR
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:29:46 -0400
From: Pete Smith <n4zr at contesting.com>
To: towertalk <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] mid-point loaded beam elements
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030407113319.04c14520 at pop.dc2.adelphia.net>
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I'm working through the design issues that would be involved in converting
an existing linear-loaded 2-element 40m beam (18-foot boom, 38-foot
elements) to coil loading at the same place where the existing loading
lines attach. The electrical design seems to be coming fine, but I'm a
little puzzled about the loading coils. Analysis that Steve, VE6WZ has
done seem to point to the need for air-wound coils, because low Q kills the
performance of the antenna. In his work, these have been left open, even
though that means some change in performance with weather.
I'm wondering if it would be feasible to enclose such coils in a plastic
enclosure. The material would have to be reasonably UV-resistant, strong,
somewhat flexible, and fairly easy to fabricate. The insulated gap in the
elements would be fiberglass rod, and the element would be supported just
outside of the loading coils by a Phillystran truss, but experience with
this antenna in a linear-loaded form suggests that a good deal of element
movement and flexing is inevitable.
I'm aware, of course, that the wind area of the coil covers will introduce
some additional load on the element. Have I missed other mechanical
issues? Any suggestions for a good coil cover material?
73, Pete N4ZR
The World HF Contest Station Database was updated 2 April 03.
Are you current? www.pvrc.org/wcsd/wcsdsearch.htm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:56:22 EDT
From: K3BU at aol.com
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] mid-point loaded beam elements
Message-ID: <28.364a7cd2.2bc315c6 at aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/7/03 1:28:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
n4zr at contesting.com writes:
> I'm wondering if it would be feasible to enclose such coils in a plastic
> enclosure. The material would have to be reasonably UV-resistant,
strong,
> somewhat flexible, and fairly easy to fabricate.
Use plastic soft drink bottles, cut the bottoms off, use two pieces if you
want complete enclosure.
Yuri, K3BU
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:09:35 +0200
From: "Sibilja Mirko" <s57ad at amis.net>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] baloon supported wire ve
Message-ID: <010e01c2fd30$f819e7a0$a12212d4 at b8f1k4>
References: <LPBBJJHKFOOEGKEBKHOJOEHEENAA.kg5u at hal-pc.org>
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Reply-To: Sibilja Mirko <s57ad at amis.net>
Message: 4
Hi TTers,
thanks to everybody who answered me either p.m. either here on reflector,
got lot of excellent advices and ideas to discuss over with other club
members. You guys are incredible indeed - I'm happy to be member of comunity
of us hams, with such a level of solidarity and cooperation.
73 de Mirko, S57AD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:31:00 EDT
From: K7LXC at aol.com
To: tmartin at chartermi.net, towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Location
Message-ID: <106.21e223f2.2bc31de4 at aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/6/03 2:41:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tmartin at chartermi.net writes:
> Can we please move on to a different topic?
>
> This discussion (?) has gone too far and serves no purpose. Let the G
> station, who started this topic, find out about realtors and real estate
> on another forum.
Hi, Tom --
Sorry you're not getting anything out of this thread. This is one of the
rare times when a new topic has showed up on TT. Please use your Delete key
if you don't want to follow this topic.
OTOH this is probably THE most important and basic subject of TowerTalk;
How do we get the property we want so that we can put up that vertical, that
dipole, that tower and have that station we've always dreamed of? This is
also the BIGGEST decision and commitment that us regular folks will make in
our whole life.
I was a mortgage loan officer for awhile and what I found out was that
buying a house is THE MOST COMPLICATED TRANSACTION YOU CAN CONCEIVE OF.
Appraisals, offers, laws, credit reports, inspections, closings, and many
other factors enter into it and ONE LITTLE PROBLEM can sink the whole deal.
You'll never get any of that done without the help of professionals in that
field. Yes - there are good ones and there are bad ones. My experience is
that the professionals know what they're doing and they have your interests
at heart. They are in the vast majority.
The guy that said he was told that all salesmen lie is doing himself a
great disservice and he is wrong. It's up to you to be an informed consumer
and ask questions. If you don't get answers to your questions, find someone
else who can answer them.
Cheers,
Steve K7LXC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:32:18 -0700
From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
To: Pete Smith <n4zr at contesting.com>, towertalk <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] mid-point loaded beam elements
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030407110255.00aacd60 at mail.earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030407113319.04c14520 at pop.dc2.adelphia.net>
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>
>
>I'm wondering if it would be feasible to enclose such coils in a plastic
>enclosure. The material would have to be reasonably UV-resistant, strong,
>somewhat flexible, and fairly easy to fabricate. The insulated gap in the
>elements would be fiberglass rod, and the element would be supported just
>outside of the loading coils by a Phillystran truss, but experience with
>this antenna in a linear-loaded form suggests that a good deal of element
>movement and flexing is inevitable.
>
>I'm aware, of course, that the wind area of the coil covers will introduce
>some additional load on the element. Have I missed other mechanical
>issues? Any suggestions for a good coil cover material?
The wind loading might be less with a suitable cover over the coil than
just the coil hanging in the wind. Small wires are quite draggy, compared
to a streamlined strut. A working Cd for a small wire is around 1.2, while
for a streamlined strut it could be as low as 0.3. Even a round tube,
because it's bigger, might have a lower Cd than the wires that it
encloses. A coil of wire/tubing with the space between wires comparable to
the wire diameter is going to be quite high drag, in proportion to the
actual cross sectional area, largely because of the turbulence and
interaction of the flows around all the wires.
I have a handbook (Blevins, "Applied Fluid Dynamics Handbook") that gives a
general equation for drag of a grille of wires with porosity alpha (i.e.
open area/total area) as
Drag force = Area * 1/2*density*V^2 * K
where K = beta*(1-alpha^2)/alpha^2
for 0.05< alpha < .8 (which seems cover the range for lots of coils)
beta varies from 1.3 down to 0.52 depending on Reynolds number (from 20 to
400). For AWG10 wire in a 10 m/sec wind (22 mi/hr), Re is about 1700, so
you'd use the 0.52 value for beta..
Running some sample numbers.. assume you want to compare two situations.. a
12" long coil that is 4" in diameter, made from AWG10 wire, spaced 0.2
inches apart (i.e. a 0.1 inch gap between windings). or the same coil
covered by a smooth cylindrical surface.
For the coil, we'll assume it's the same as two grilles that are 4"x12",
with 50% porosity.. K = 0.52 * (1-0.5^2)/(0.5^2) >> K=1.56
So, the drag force will be: Area*1/2*density*V^2 * (2 * 1.56) (because
there are two grilles..front and back side of the coil)
Now, the round tube... Reynolds number is 40 times higher (because you're
working with 4" tube instead of 0.1" wire) at around 70,000 (again, for
10m/sec wind). It turns out that this is about the worst possible
situation, because the Cd of the cylinder is 1.2 at Re=100,000 (and drops
to 0.4 at Re=1E6).. A slightly larger tube or a faster wind might actually
greatly reduce the wind drag.
Drag = area * 1/2*density*v^2 * 1.2
In both cases, the first part of the expression (area*1/2*density*V^2) is
the same..
The proportionality constant is 1.2 for the big round tube compared to 3.12
for the grille... and, if you make the tube a bit bigger in diameter (or
the wind is a bit faster), then even though the area is greater, the Cd is
much less..
Take home message: Tiny wires have huge drag, compared to their cross
sectional area! Airplanes use struts instead of wires for bracing for a
good reason.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:52:29 EDT
From: K7LXC at aol.com
To: kce at chartermi.net, towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] re location
Message-ID: <199.186056e5.2bc322ed at aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/7/03 8:25:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kce at chartermi.net
writes:
> Last week just for the fun of
> it, I asked one of the reps from one of the companies about tower
> restrictions and other bylaws. I was surprised when she answered me right
> away and told me a couple of things I would not of even thought about in
> buying a home in some of these areas.
And these surprising answers were...?
Cheers,
Steve K7LXC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 11:59:38 -0700
From: Dan Arney <hankarn at pacbell.net>
To: K7LXC at aol.com
Cc: tmartin at chartermi.net
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Location
Message-ID: <3E91CA9A.E81244C3 at pacbell.net>
References: <106.21e223f2.2bc31de4 at aol.com>
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Steve,
Great comment.
Thanks,
Hank
KN6DI
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:08:18 -0400
From: Jerry K3BZ <k3bz at arrl.net>
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Location
Message-ID: <002101c2fd39$0c8d1150$1902a8c0 at MainDesktop>
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Reply-To: Jerry K3BZ <k3bz at arrl.net>
Message: 9
Unfortunately, most of the real estate people
one encounters are not really fully trained "professionals", but rather
"sales reps" who work for a fully-licensed broker. Generally, the primary
tasks of the sales rep is to show as many properties as possible, with only
a rudimentary sorting. They've been been instructed by their boss (the
broker) that it is better to sell first and worry about the details later.
That's why, when you tell them your price range is "X", they try to show you
"Y", and so forth. They've been told to just come close, because most buyers
don't really know exactly what they want.
The theory is that if you show enough properties, the buyers will like one
or two... and if if a buyer "likes" the house, secondary concerns (stuff
like CC&R's, etc) will be overlooked and/or just lived with. As I said,
most of
these folks are not really fully trained "professionals", many are only part
timers, and they have only enough actual training to pass the "sales rep"
exam. Kind of like getting your "novice".... and you've heard of "work 'em
first, worry later"?
This is not really a slam against real estate sales folks, (been there, done
that) but just to put into perspective why you shouldn't expect much from
them in the way of help regarding CC&R's and/or properties that will allow
antennas & towers. After all, maybe they only get a ham buyer once or twice
out of a hundred buyers? And sales reps have to be out showing properties
to make any
money, not "researching" CC&R's, etc. We hams are definitely in the minority
of home buyers, and our concerns are not what real estate people run into
every day, so it's rare to find one that has any appreciation for our needs.
It's always a good idea to put a provision in an offer: make it subject to
there not being any restrictions on towers or antennas (or whatever is your
concern...there are other things you might want to cover.) Then go and
research it yourself. It's pretty easy.
Asking the seller isn't reliable. Many times the sellers don't realize the
extent of the CC&R's on their property, so you can't rely on a "no" answer
if you ask. It's up to you to find out. If you're serious about a property,
go to the county courthouse or Registry of Deeds, and look up the deed for
that street address. It's a public record, and the clerks at the Registry
will usually help you find the one you want. Any CC&R's should in most cases
be filed with the deed, or a reference should be given. You can get a
photocopy to review with your lawyer. It only takes 20 min or so, and it's
time well spent.
73, Jerry K3BZ
----- Original Message -----
From: <K7LXC at aol.com>
To: <tmartin at chartermi.net>; <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Location
> In a message dated 4/6/03 2:41:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> tmartin at chartermi.net writes:
>
> > Can we please move on to a different topic?
> >
> > This discussion (?) has gone too far and serves no purpose. Let the G
> > station, who started this topic, find out about realtors and real
estate
> > on another forum.
>
> Hi, Tom --
>
> Sorry you're not getting anything out of this thread. This is one of
the
> rare times when a new topic has showed up on TT. Please use your Delete
key
> if you don't want to follow this topic.
>
> OTOH this is probably THE most important and basic subject of
TowerTalk;
> How do we get the property we want so that we can put up that vertical,
that
> dipole, that tower and have that station we've always dreamed of? This is
> also the BIGGEST decision and commitment that us regular folks will make
in
> our whole life.
>
> I was a mortgage loan officer for awhile and what I found out was that
> buying a house is THE MOST COMPLICATED TRANSACTION YOU CAN CONCEIVE OF.
> Appraisals, offers, laws, credit reports, inspections, closings, and many
> other factors enter into it and ONE LITTLE PROBLEM can sink the whole
deal.
> You'll never get any of that done without the help of professionals in
that
> field. Yes - there are good ones and there are bad ones. My experience is
> that the professionals know what they're doing and they have your
interests
> at heart. They are in the vast majority.
>
> The guy that said he was told that all salesmen lie is doing himself a
> great disservice and he is wrong. It's up to you to be an informed
consumer
> and ask questions. If you don't get answers to your questions, find
someone
> else who can answer them.
>
> Cheers,
> Steve K7LXC
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:55:49 +0800
From: "Harris" <leckfam at attglobal.net>
To: "Eric Rosenberg" <wd3q at erols.com>,
"Force 12 Mailing List" <Force12talk at qth.com>,
"Tower Talk Mailing List" <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Re: [Force 12 Talk] WRC 2/2 Over a C3SS/C4SS?
Message-ID: <0c3955944140443MAIL1 at galactica.it>
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Eric,
I stacked a 6 element 6 mtr beam over a C4-E. I had to have 8 feet of
separation before there was no change in the SWR so that would be the
minimum.
Harris VK6AV VE6DK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Rosenberg" <wd3q at erols.com>
To: "Force 12 Mailing List" <Force12talk at qth.com>; "Tower Talk Mailing List"
<towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: [Force 12 Talk] WRC 2/2 Over a C3SS/C4SS?
> On my roof tower, about 8 feet over the peak of the roof here in D.C.,
> I have a C3-SS , soon to be (I hope) a C4-SS.
>
> I'm thinking about adding the F12 WRC 2/2, but am wondering what the
> separation distance should be anad wheether the entire stack (ha!)
> should be higher off my roof.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Eric W3DQ
> Washington, DC
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:56:01 +0200
From: "j.a.hermans" <j.a.hermans at skynet.be>
To: "Sibilja Mirko" <s57ad at amis.net>, <towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] baloon supported wire verticals
Message-ID: <004101c2faba$4f500320$f7cd88d9 at hermansjos>
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Hello Mirko
,
A baloon and a kite to stabilise.
A kite alone would probably do if not very very high winds or no wind at
all.
In good conditions a kite only can hold your antenna up for quite a time.(
days )
Think its a worthwhile experiment
There is already a lot off stuff on the net, try ea search engine.
Good luck
Jos on4kj
From: "Sibilja Mirko" <s57ad at amis.net>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 2:36 PM
Subject: [TowerTalk] baloon supported wire verticals
> Hi TTers,
>
> our club (S58U) is planning to put up top band vire vertical in one of
next
> contests. Baloon is meteorological one, filled by He. Advices and hints
> would be greatly appreciated (wire size, neccessity of additional guying
the
> baloon to avoid flewing baloon away by wind, etc).
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> 73! Mirko, S57AD
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> See: http://www.mscomputer.com for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
Weather Stations", and lot's more. Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
------------------------------
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