[TowerTalk] Re: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 25, Issue 87

[Anthony DeBiasi]

The K2SG node is functional at both my QTH and Larry K2GN's QTH which is 
about 15 miles North of the site.  Larry has a small beam pointed towards 
the 160 site and he is always full scale at my place so it should work just 
fine.  I have the GD 2m radio and TNC which I will bring to the site on 
Friday morning and test the link.  Depending on the weather I should be 
available on Friday/Saturday to operate as I am leaving for Florida on 
Sunday or Monday.

..Tony K2SG




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <towertalk-request at contesting.com>
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:10 AM
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 25, Issue 87


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground' (Tom Rauch)
>   2. SteppIR installation (Martin Sole)
>   3. Re: There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground' (Frank Donovan)
>   4. Re: There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground' (Frank Donovan)
>   5. RE: SteppIR installation (Martin Sole)
>   6. RE: Moth Balls (GALE STEWARD)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:06:40 -0500
> From: "Tom Rauch" <w8ji at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
> To: <garyschafer at comcast.net>
> Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
> Message-ID: <004701c4fc73$ded5ab00$6601a8c0 at akorn.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> How does the braid perform at 1 mhz?
>
> I don't have any comparison data at 1 MHz Gary. Sorry.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:16:56 +0700
> From: "Martin Sole" <msole at loxinfo.co.th>
> Subject: [TowerTalk] SteppIR installation
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20050117091656.5C5CE3BEE9 at mailz1.loxinfo.co.th>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Tomorrow myself, HS0ZED, and John, W2YR, will go to the shack of our good
> friend Eddy, HS0/EA4BKA, to assemble and install his new 3 el SteppIR. We
> have allowed ourselves a couple of days to complete the job staying
> overnight in Pattaya which should be fun. I would appreciate any comments 
> or
> suggestions from those that have already been through the process 
> regarding
> anything we need to consider before starting. We will install an EF140 at
> right angles, i.e. parallel to the boom of the SteppIR. Is it okay to 
> place
> this just a few feet away give the orientation or do we need to be more
> careful?
>
> 73
> Martin - HS0ZED
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:23:03 -0500
> From: "Frank Donovan" <donovanf at erols.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <015901c4fc8f$4c260720$6401a8c0 at rock.gtegsc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Keith,
>
> You should use braided strap only when RF grounding or
> lightning protection is not required.  Otherwise, use copper
> strap, copper tubing or stranded or solid copper wire.
> If you must use braid, use the 1 inch wide braid, and limit
> its length to not more than one foot.
>
> In the Amateur Electronic Supply catalog, 1.5 inch wide
> copper strap is priced ($99.99/100 ft) about the same  as
> 1 inch wide braid ($92.99).   The 3 inch copper strap is
> even better and is listed in the AES catalog at $139.99
> per 100 feet.
>
> 73!
> Frank
> W3LPL
> donovanf at erols.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Keith Dutson <kjdutson at earthlink.net>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:13 AM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
>
>
>> Now this is the most plausible explanation seen so far.  Basically it
> seems
>> that there is no valid reason to have measured evidence if one follows
> sound
>> engineering practice.  Makes perfect sense to me.  Think I will replace
> the
>> braid with copper strap.
>>
>> Tom, thanks for posting.  And thanks to Frank for bringing up this issue.
>>
>> As a side note, I went back to the Harger site which lists tinned copper
>> braid as one of their grounding strap options.  All of their braid is 
>> flat
>> and tightly woven (not the flattened coax shield found at most vendors),
>> very heavy gauge, and is bonded to special sandwich type lugs to keep 
>> them
>> absolutely flat at each end.  I am thinking this is a reasonable
> alternative
>> to wide strap when one must have the flexibility.
>>
>> Keith NM5G
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rauch
>> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 8:26 PM
>> To: keith at dutson.net; 'Frank Donovan'; towertalk at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
>>
>> > However, it is empirical evidence that I am seeking.  My
>> station ground
>> > system design is based on what I have found in ARRL and
>> other publications
>> > such as the technical documents provided by Polyphaser and
>> Harger.  I found
>> > nothing published that spoke of the adverse effects caused
>> by using braided
>> > straps.  Your posts are the only source.
>>
>> Sometimes we can't easily find things that are commonly known or
> understood
>> in engineering circles. Most engineers and many hobbyists understand skin
>> effect, and it only takes a moment to reason through this.
>>
>> The problem with any conductor at high frequency is skin effect "pushes"
>> current to the outside. When the conductor is woven, current either has 
>> to
>> flow from inward moving strand to a surface stand through pressure 
>> contact
>> or suffer a path of greatly increased impedance if it follows the 
>> original
>> strand inside the braid.
>>
>> The typical clean copper braid with a basically parallel lay and minor
> weave
>> has perhaps four times the resistance per unit length of a similar width
>> smooth surfaced conductor. Of course it varies with the braid 
>> construction
>> and contact resistance between strands, but that is generally for better
>> braid that is clean with good pressure contact between strands.
>>
>> In HF power amplifiers, I have found a good general rule of thumb is 
>> this:
>> At 30 MHz is the clean braid from RG-8 cable has about the same current
>> carrying capacity as #14 or 16 tinned solid buss wire.
>>
>> It's quite common to have braided leads of rather large size overheat and
>> fail even at just several amperes at radio frequencies.
>>
>> Many construction standards prohibit braided straps in RF or lightning
> paths
>> unless the connection absolutely must have braiding in order to withstand
>> flexing, and then the braid is often substantially oversized to make up
> for
>> its reduced current capacity. It's my understanding NASA restricts use of
>> braiding, and I can cite many cases where braiding will either cause
>> excessive loss or actually fail in high current RF systems.
>>
>> By the way, that permanent loss increase you see in coaxial cables that
> have
>> been wet, even after they dry back out? It primarily comes from loss of
>> strand contact in the weave caused by the tarnishing of conductors.
>>
>> If the Handbook tells readers braiding (especially braiding that might be
>> exposed to moisture) is a good idea in high frequency or lightning
>> grounds....they are giving bad advice.
>>
>> 73 Tom
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
>> Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
> any
>> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
> Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with 
> any
> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:39:42 -0500
> From: "Frank Donovan" <donovanf at erols.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <017201c4fc91$9e58e560$6401a8c0 at rock.gtegsc.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Keith,
>
> If you work as a professional in the industry, or if
> you're interested in spending several hundred dollars,
> purchase the EIA/TIA and IEEE grounding and bonding
> standards that provide exactly the engineering foundation
> information you are seeking.  If you want to spend the
> money, let it be known on the reflector and I'm sure
> you will get the specifics.
>
> Otherwise, I suggest you visit a commercial cell site, a
> radio transmitter site, or a large computer facility in your
> area.
>
> Let us know how many braid straps you find.  If you
> find any, let us know how long they are.
>
> 73!
> Frank
> W3LPL
> donovanf at erols.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Keith Dutson <kjdutson at earthlink.net>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 3:59 PM
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
>
>
>> >Its been well proven that braided strap has far too much inductance to 
>> >be
>> of any utility above 2 MHz.
>>
>> OK.  So where is the proof?
>>
>> I am thinking any writing you can find is based on the use of braid that
> of
>> poor manufacture or has corroded, or both.  Poor or corroded braid can 
>> act
>> like many very small wires to create substantial impedance.  However, 
>> well
>> constructed braid acts more like a solid bar of metal, but with the
>> flexibility required for many installations.
>>
>> Keith NM5G
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Frank Donovan
>> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:35 AM
>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] There's 'ground', and then there's 'ground'
>>
>> Here's a clarification, pointed out by an attentive towertalkian:
>>
>> My previous e-mail was not intended to refer to cables that use a braided
>> shield under a jacket.  A tight jacket compresses the braid and it's a
> very
>> effective RF conductor, provided that the braid is not corroded.
>>
>> Rather, my comment was intended to apply to to the inappropriate use of
>> braided strap for RF grounding or lightning protection.  Its been well
>> proven that braided strap has far too much inductance to be of any 
>> utility
>> above 2 MHz.
>>
>> So...   Lets try again:
>>
>> Discard all forms of "braided" strap.
>> Braid is something a girl does to her hair.
>> Braided strap is a poor RF conductor and it's a terrible conductor of
>> lightning energy.
>>
>> Use braided strap only for DC and audio applications, its just an 
>> inductor
>> for RF or lightning protection applications.
>>
>> Here's an excellent reference from the many industry sources on this
> topic:
>> http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground5.htm
>>
>> 73!
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>> donovanf at erols.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
>> Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
> any
>> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
> Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with 
> any
> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:50:59 +0700
> From: "Martin Sole" <msole at loxinfo.co.th>
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] SteppIR installation
> To: "'Pete Smith'" <n4zr at contesting.com>, <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20050117125109.BE0637F872 at mailz2.loxinfo.co.th>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks Pete, that is what we figured and we will be putting the EF140
> perpendicular to the SteppIR elements. In this configuration do you think 
> 6
> feet is the minimum?
>
> 73
> Martin - HS0ZED
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pete Smith [mailto:n4zr at contesting.com]
> Sent: 17 January 2005 18:36
> To: Martin Sole
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] SteppIR installation
>
> I have an EF-240S that is 6 feet above a tribander, and interaction was
> severe until I turned it perpendicular.  That suggests to me that much 
> less
> than 6 feet would probably be asking for trouble on 15 meters.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
>
> At 04:16 AM 1/17/2005, you wrote:
>
>>Tomorrow myself, HS0ZED, and John, W2YR, will go to the shack of our
>>good friend Eddy, HS0/EA4BKA, to assemble and install his new 3 el
>>SteppIR. We have allowed ourselves a couple of days to complete the job
>>staying overnight in Pattaya which should be fun. I would appreciate
>>any comments or suggestions from those that have already been through
>>the process regarding anything we need to consider before starting. We
>>will install an EF140 at right angles, i.e. parallel to the boom of the
>>SteppIR. Is it okay to place this just a few feet away give the
>>orientation or do we need to be more careful?
>>
>>73
>>Martin - HS0ZED
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting Towers", "Wireless
>>Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
>>any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TowerTalk mailing list
>>TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 05:09:54 -0800 (PST)
> From: GALE STEWARD <k3nd at yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: [TowerTalk] Moth Balls
> To: towertalk reflector <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Message-ID: <20050117130954.59343.qmail at web50701.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> This is true. However, I've found it takes several
> years when they are inside a relatively airtight
> enclosure. I check them during normal equipoment
> maintance.
>
> 73, Stew K3ND
>
>
> --- "Al, N6TA" <n6ta at arrl.net> wrote:
>
>> Those of you planning on the mothball approach, be
>> aware that they will
>> eventually wither away and leave you unprotected.
>> Al
>> N6TA
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com]On Behalf
>> Of RICHARD BOYD
>> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 06:26
>> To: towertalk reflector; ABowenN4OO
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Moth Balls
>>
>> I will be implementing this tip in all the places I
>> will have that will be
>> like this.  My plan is to put a utility box (I have
>> 13 of the utility
>> company-type light green ones) at the base of each
>> tower as a junction for
>> coax coming down the tower and the coax to the shack
>> -- for ground, etc.
>> Just sitting around, these boxes clearly are an
>> attractive nest site for
>> wasps.  I hope the moth balls will keep them all
>> out.
>>
>> On lady bugs, I suppose half of them are "gentleman
>> bugs."  And maybe
>> they're not "gentlemen."  We have a lot of ladybugs
>> here, in the house.  I
>> think they are coming in through the bathroom vents.
>>  I didn't realize that
>> they "over-winter," but apparently they do, seeking
>> cozy hideaways, with 10,
>> 20 or more huddled together in corners of the
>> ceiling.  Since they are
>> apparently harmless and, in fact, are beneficial in
>> the growing season
>> because they eat aphids, which in turn eat roses,
>> and are more charming than
>> most insects, I'm not too worried about them.
>>
>> 73 - Rich, KE3Q
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "ABowenN4OO" <abowen at nettally.com>
>> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>>
>> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:05 AM
>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Moth Balls
>>
>>
>> > I was about to publish a note similar to K3ND's,
>> regarding insects and
>> > moth
>> > bolls. I opened my relay box out on the tower and
>> found stacks of lady
>> > bugs
>> > doing unlady like things inside the box. In
>> addition, there were a number
>> > of wasp clusters and spider webs.
>> >
>> > I put 5 moth balls in a small diameter glass jar
>> and taped it inside the
>> > relay box (12 X 18"). No more insects. I have done
>> the same for my remote
>> > Beverage boxes which are loved by spiders, but a
>> single ball will do for
>> > those.
>> >
>> > I am not sure about the composition but think the
>> major ingredient is
>> > naptha. I put the moth balls in a glass jar
>> because I was not sure of the
>> > effect of naptha on the various plastics. Plastic
>> pill containers should
>> > also work for a time also per K3ND. I suspect the
>> balls will evaporate
>> > with
>> > time and require replacement.
>> >
>> > I also intend on dropping one or 2 on fire ant
>> hills and see if I can get
>> > them to move.
>> >
>> > INK N4OO
>> > ===========================================
>> > At 05:42 AM 1/13/2005 -0800, GALE STEWARD wrote:
>> >
>> > >Years ago one of the OTs mentioned that fact the
>> he
>> > >used moth balls to keep insects out of outdoor
>> > >enclosures. I have a matching network for my
>> 80/160
>> > >vertical. See:
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >
>> > See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self
>> Supporting Towers", "Wireless
>> > Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll
>> Free, 1-800-333-9041 with
>> > any questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > TowerTalk mailing list
>> > TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> >
>>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting
>> Towers", "Wireless
>> Weather Stations", and lot's more.  Call Toll Free,
>> 1-800-333-9041 with any
>> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> See: http://www.mscomputer.com  for "Self Supporting
>> Towers", "Wireless Weather Stations", and lot's
>> more.  Call Toll Free, 1-800-333-9041 with any
>> questions and ask for Sherman, W2FLA.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
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>
>
> End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 25, Issue 87
> *****************************************