[TowerTalk] Tower wench failure

Sat Mar 17 15:36:24 EST 2007

Fellows, get a wench used on the front of a truck or ATV.  I use one and it
is great.  Positive stop anywhere.  Cheap too.  You can get them in AC or
battery powered.  Your friendly Home Depot may carry them.

Dwight   W4IJY

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
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Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:49 PM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 41

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Today's Topics:

   1. 40 meter vertical to 80 meters. (Lee Buller)
   2. Re: Tower winch failure (Joe Giacobello)
   3. Tower winch failure; revised (KT2Q)
   4. [antenneX] Qubical Quad Notes W4RNL - Volume 3 Released
      (K7LXC at aol.com)
   5. Re: Tower winch failure (Dino Darling)
   6.  40 meter vertical to 80 meters. (john at kk9a.com)
   7. Re: Tower winch failure (Dino Darling)
   8. Re: Tower winch failure (Greg)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Buller <k0wa at swbell.net>
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40 meter vertical to 80 meters.
To: TowerTalk Reflector <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <669814.72527.qm at web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

  Ladies and Gents,,,

  Last year, I build a homebrew 1/4 wave verticle and mounted it on the
ground with 16 radials underneath it.  I am in the process of adding 16 more
radials.  The antenna is made out of aluminum tubing starting with and 1"
1/4 and going down to 3/4".  The length is 32 feet and with 16 radials under
it...it resonates at 7.100...at least it is flat there...and the MFJ 259
says it has imdedance of 55 ohms...R=53-55, X=3-6, Theta is 10 degress,
Works good too.

  What I want to figure out is how to had a "top-hat" to the antenna to
bring it down to 80 meters.  I know that the MFJ brand of verticals uses a
top hat loading scheme and I wonder how you calculate or figure out the
capacitance one would need to build something like this?  Or, is it trial
and error?

  In addition, the top of the antenna is fairly small tubing (I am afraid I
will bend it with to much weight or load) and I need to come down on the
antenna about 8 feet to install the top hat.  I guess one would have to use
trial and error to find the right combination of "spokes and Lenghts" to
make the capacitance hat.  Looking at the Handbook, it does not really have
a "formula" for such things.

  Anyone have any insite?  Give me a starting point?

  73
  Lee - K0WA

In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you
don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you
can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common
Sense.  Is Common Sense devine?

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:23:28 -0400
From: Joe Giacobello <k2xx at swva.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure
To: Al Williams <alwilliams at olywa.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <45FC2410.7010408 at swva.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I'm using 2550s on LM-470s here too and wasn't aware of the 
free-wheeling mode.  I'd appreciate hearing the details too.

73, Joe

Al Williams wrote:
> The holes in the k2550 mounting plate do not match the holes in the K1550 
> mounting plate.  When I replaced a k1550 with a k2550 I had to ream out
some 
> (I forget how many) of the holes by up to about 3/8 inch.  That wasn't a
big 
> task.
>
> What bad things are true of the Fulton 1550 winch?
>
>  I believe that its braking system is similar to the Fulton 2550.  I 
> replaced the k1550 with the k2550 because the k1550 being used in the 
> tiltover portion of LM470 squealed so strongly that it was a wonder that 
> neighbors didn't come running to complain. I calculated that because of 
> weight and cable angles involved that the winch was being overloaded.
This 
> occurred when tilting the tower back down using the initial sling setup
i.e. 
> not changing tower to tilt at the ears at the top of the tilt fixture.
The 
> k2550 tilts the tower quietly.
>
> What do you mean by "...puff, the Fullton 1550 winch broke."
>
> On an earlier posting I reported that there is a free wheeling mode that
the 
> Fulton winch can get into.  This occurred to me with the k2550 when the 
> crank arm started running away as I began tilting the tower from vertical 
> down.  I grabbed the handle as it was spinning slowly and stopped it.
There 
> appears to be a spring loaded "cocking" of the clutch that needs to be 
> completed before the clutch is engaged.   I would appreciate if any 
> towertalkers can explain how brake winches work.  I know that it is the 
> clutch but it seems strange that a little dinky friction can withstand the

> force of the towers pull!
>
> k7puc
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "KT2Q" <dxdx at optonline.net>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:02 AM
> Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure
>
>
>   
>> All:
>>
>> Was cranking my US Tower HDX555 up after last
>> nights ice storm when puff, the Fullton 1550 winch
>> broke.
>>
>> I thought there would have been damage to the
>> tower and antennas, but it came down much slower
>> than I thought it would; guess it was probably due
>> to the mechanical drag of the unwinding winch and
>> caked ice and snow.
>>
>> The only thing I'm worried about now are those
>> parts of the tower that stop the inner sections
>> from slamming into the foundation. It landed in
>> packed ice and snow at the base when it came down.
>>
>> Looks like all the bad things are true about the
>> Fullton 1550 winch; anyone know if the 2550 is a
>> direct bolt-on for the HDX series? Where can I get
>> one?
>>
>> 73 Tony KT2Q
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk 
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>
>
>   

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 13:33:49 -0400
From: KT2Q <dxdx at optonline.net>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure; revised
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <00c201c768ba$6cb95700$6501a8c0 at TOSHIBA>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
	reply-type=original

All:

After clearing the ice from the winch, I can now 
see that the pawl or spring-loaded latch is still 
there, but it looks like the crank shaft that the 
sprockets are attached to shifted to one side 
causing the sprockets to go out of alignment with 
the pawl. Looks like whatever held the shaft 
inline, must have broke. Could be a bushing issue.

Antennas look fine, just worried about any damage 
to the tower "stops" that keep it from slamming 
down.

Tony KT2Q

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:15:32 EDT
From: K7LXC at aol.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] [antenneX] Qubical Quad Notes W4RNL - Volume 3
	Released
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <c38.116791a5.332d8a44 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Howdy, TowerTalkians --

    FYI.

Cheers,
Steve     K7LXC

>  * Announcing the release of a new book by LB Cebik, W4RNL  *
============================================================
Cubical Quad Notes Volume 3: Multi-Band Quad Questions
By L.B. Cebik, W4RNL

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involved in the design of multi-band quad beams.  Beginning with
2-element designs, Cebik analyzes element interaction in  spider
designs and then sorts those interactions from others that involve  the
use of a common feedpoint. The work involves the accumulation  of
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quad performance.

In Volume 1, Cebik reviewed extensively the  design of cubical quad
beams up to the time of its writing.  Designs  consisted of roughly 3
types: full size monoband 2-element quads, shrunken  quads, and
examples of monoband and multi-band quads with more than 2  elements.

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on monoband designs.  To rectify performance deficiencies, the  volume
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optimization to a series of computer design programs.

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and numerous data  tables.

Please go to our Main Announcement Page for more  info:
http://www.antennex.com/news/index.html

====================================================

Thanks  for your time & hope to see you soon!

(^_^)
Jack L. Stone,  Publisher
antenneX Online  Magazine
http://www.antennex.com
jack at antennex.com

************************************** AOL now offers free email to
everyone. 
 Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:31:38 -0700
From: Dino Darling <dino at k6rix.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure
To: KT2Q <dxdx at optonline.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20070317183152.9BAE1319544 at dayton.contesting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
	x-avg-checked=avg-ok-348F8ED

You'll be looking long and hard to find a better winch.  I have used 
these winches on towers and in the traffic control industry (by the 
thousands) for over 20 years.  A winch failure is not impossible, but 
it is usually due to poor maintenance in harsh environments.

The engineers picked the 1550 for a reason.  The 2550 has more 
capacity at a reduced (1/3) speed.  BTW, how long did the 1550 last?

If you are comfortable with picking a winch that may have not been 
used for your application, then that is your prerogative.  I'd 
suggest going with the original 1550 and maybe upgrade to the 2550 if 
you don't mind spending the extra $$$.  Also, there is a KX version 
of the 1550 which "offer plated gear covers for improved gear train 
protection, and a dual ratchet system for added load control security."

Here is a post from 2003...
http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2003-08/msg00556.html

Search for winches...
http://www.nextag.com/Fulton/fulton-winches/brand-html

Good luck!

At 09:26 AM 3/17/2007, KT2Q wrote:
>  I was hoping the 2550 had a heavy duty mechanism compared to the 
> 1550. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for a better winch.
>
>Tony KT2Q

Dino - K6RIX
dino at k6rix.com 

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Checked by AVG.
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 14:37:47 -0400
From: <john at kk9a.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk]  40 meter vertical to 80 meters.
To: <TOWERTALK at contesting.com>
Cc: k0wa at swbell.net
Message-ID: <001d01c768c3$5d5d3750$67164ed8 at Basement>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

A 32 foot vertical will need a pretty large top hat to be resonate on 80m 
and I don't think that your tubing is of adequate size to support it.    If 
you come down 8 feet as you suggested you will need an even larger top hat 
as I don't think having your vertical go above the top hat does much. You 
can easily model this to come up with the top hat sizes.   A vertical with a

top hat will have a lower impedance than a full sized one so you'll likely 
need some type of matching system.    Another effective method of top 
loading is to run a wire (30 - 40' long) from the top of your vertical to a 
tree or back down to the ground on an angle.

John KK9A

To: TowerTalk Reflector
Subject: [TowerTalk] 40 meter vertical to 80 meters.
From: Lee Buller <k0wa at swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 10:18:28 -0700 (PDT)

  Ladies and Gents,,,

  Last year, I build a homebrew 1/4 wave verticle and mounted it on the 
ground
with 16 radials underneath it.  I am in the process of adding 16 more 
radials.
The antenna is made out of aluminum tubing starting with and 1" 1/4 and 
going
down to 3/4".  The length is 32 feet and with 16 radials under it...it
resonates at 7.100...at least it is flat there...and the MFJ 259 says it has
imdedance of 55 ohms...R=53-55, X=3-6, Theta is 10 degress,  Works good too.

  What I want to figure out is how to had a "top-hat" to the antenna to 
bring
it down to 80 meters.  I know that the MFJ brand of verticals uses a top hat
loading scheme and I wonder how you calculate or figure out the capacitance 
one
would need to build something like this?  Or, is it trial and error?

  In addition, the top of the antenna is fairly small tubing (I am afraid I
will bend it with to much weight or load) and I need to come down on the
antenna about 8 feet to install the top hat.  I guess one would have to use
trial and error to find the right combination of "spokes and Lenghts" to 
make
the capacitance hat.  Looking at the Handbook, it does not really have a
"formula" for such things.

  Anyone have any insite?  Give me a starting point?

  73
  Lee - K0WA 

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:42:50 -0700
From: Dino Darling <dino at k6rix.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure
To: k2xx at swva.net
Cc: Al Williams <alwilliams at olywa.net>, towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <20070317184302.018BE319A60 at dayton.contesting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed;
	x-avg-checked=avg-ok-348F8ED

The K series winches are not designed or intended to freewheel.  This 
is not a feature, but an anomaly.

>I'm using 2550s on LM-470s here too and wasn't aware of the
>free-wheeling mode.  I'd appreciate hearing the details too.

Dino - K6RIX
dino at k6rix.com 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release Date: 3/17/2007

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 11:48:51 -0700
From: "Greg" <ab7r at cablespeed.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure
To: "Dino Darling" <dino at k6rix.com>, "KT2Q" <dxdx at optonline.net>
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <CPECIMPDCAFCMNMEBCMLOEOCCJAA.ab7r at cablespeed.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Also keep in mind MOST other winches are designed/rated for pulling, not
lifting.  Please don't think because a winch is rated for 1500 lbs pulling
it will lift that weight safely, it will not.  The Fulton/Bulldog winches
are rated for pulling and lifting, that's why tower manufacturers supply
them with their towers.  If you are careful not to get lube on the discs and
maintain it properly.  I plan to replace the discs and pawl assembly every
few years.....probably whenever I replace the cable.  May be a bit overkill,
but cheap insurance and peace of mind.

GL
Greg
AB7R

-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com]On Behalf Of Dino Darling
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:32 AM
To: KT2Q
Cc: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tower winch failure

You'll be looking long and hard to find a better winch.  I have used
these winches on towers and in the traffic control industry (by the
thousands) for over 20 years.  A winch failure is not impossible, but
it is usually due to poor maintenance in harsh environments.

The engineers picked the 1550 for a reason.  The 2550 has more
capacity at a reduced (1/3) speed.  BTW, how long did the 1550 last?

If you are comfortable with picking a winch that may have not been
used for your application, then that is your prerogative.  I'd
suggest going with the original 1550 and maybe upgrade to the 2550 if
you don't mind spending the extra $$$.  Also, there is a KX version
of the 1550 which "offer plated gear covers for improved gear train
protection, and a dual ratchet system for added load control security."

Here is a post from 2003...
http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2003-08/msg00556.html

Search for winches...
http://www.nextag.com/Fulton/fulton-winches/brand-html

Good luck!

At 09:26 AM 3/17/2007, KT2Q wrote:
>  I was hoping the 2550 had a heavy duty mechanism compared to the
> 1550. I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for a better winch.
>
>Tony KT2Q

Dino - K6RIX
dino at k6rix.com

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.13/725 - Release Date: 3/17/2007

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End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 41
*****************************************