[TowerTalk] Cost effectivel Tower height
David Gilbert
xdavid at cis-broadband.com
Fri Dec 2 09:40:32 PST 2011
I think ALL of that is great advice, at least partly because I pretty
much did exactly that when I installed my system three years ago ;)
I have an Optibeam OB16-3 tribander three feet above the top of a 70
foot AN Wireless freestanding tower with an Optibeam coil-loaded 2
element 40m yagi about 12 feet higher up the mast, both turned by a
Prosistel PST-61D rotator. I did it that way because I wanted the extra
height on 40m, but I came very close to simply buying the OB12-4 and it
certainly would have been an easier installation. I think the 12-4 is a
great option.
Whatever you do for antennas, do not undersize your freestanding
tower. Both Trylon and AN Wireless are good choices to improve the
odds that neither you or your antennas end up in a heap on the ground.
73,
Dave AB7E
On 12/1/2011 1:11 PM, ve4xt at mymts.net wrote:
> You have to get HFTA. It's just that simple. You'll get a good picture of
> what your antennas need and it will help you avoid overkill, which helps
> avoid added costs. Too high an effective height can be just as bad as too
> low.
>
> Because your antenna is likely to be a big one, you're probably going to be
> giving Dan at AN Wireless or the folks at Champion Radio (for Trylon) a
> call. (Especially if you have to stick to freestanding.)
>
> I would be leery of mounting something with more than one 40-m element on a
> BX style of tower.
>
> When choosing a rotator, don't merely go by the square footage of the
> antenna. Some antennas with relatively small surface area can overload a
> rotator based on their turning radius and weight.
>
> For antennas, I'd check out Optibeam's OB8-4 or OB12-4 or Force 12's
> Delta4XL. I'd suggest at least a Yaesu 2800 or HyGain HDR300 or something by
> Create, Prosistel or Alfa for the rotator.
>
> I know you don't want stacks, but you might want to consider a tribander at
> the thrust bearing and a 2-el shorty forty above that. It's doable on the
> right freestanding tower.
>
> A bit of separation, and/or 90-degree offset, can help reduce interaction
> between the 40m and 15m elements.
>
> 73, kelly
> ve4xt
>
>
>
> On 12/1/11 12:47 PM, "Andreas Hofmann"<Andreas.Hofmann at microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have received an overwhelming response to my questions. I should have
>> mentioned a few more points/requirements:
>>
>> - single multiband beam 40 - 10. No stacks. I am running verticals and wires
>> hanging in trees and can hear ok, but are not being heard well on 40 for
>> example. I want at least a few S units improvement and F/B would be great as
>> well.
>> - I like DX and DX contesting, but casually. Focus on Europe.
>> - self supporting, no guy wires
>> - low profile to appease to wife and neighbors
>> - cheap. This is a hobby for me and I am not retired (:-)
>> - account for the sloping terrain, so if it can be lower because of it, yes,
>> yes, hence cheaper.
>>
>> I understand that any multi-band beam is a compromise.
>> I understand that any beam might not work to its maximum into all DX
>> directions (different angles needed).
>>
>> At this point, I want to thank all of you for your input. I will run the
>> suggested software and report back with my findings.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Andreas
>> KU7T
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:08 AM
>> To: Drax Felton; [TowerTalk]
>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Cost effectivel Tower height
>>
>>
>>> Isn't the a half wave high tower the general rule of thumb for a> decent dx
>>> angle?
>> No, 1/2 wave is where a horizontally polarized antenna shows its first null
>> directly overhead.
>>
>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m)
>> 60 ft is 0.86 wave on 20 meters (14 MHz) - one wavelength is 70 feet.
>>
>> If I had to choose a single tower height *over flat ground* it would be
>> 70 feet. That represents 1/2 wave on 40 meters - a point that a dipole or two
>> element Yagi has some decent (but not world beating) performance
>> - and a useful height for an 80 meter inverted V or a place to hang inverted L
>> antennas for 160 and 80. In addition, 70 feet in 1 1/5 wave on 15 meters
>> (perhaps the most useful overall height for DX) and 2 waves on 10 (high but
>> not too high except for short skip).
>>
>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m) you need more guys with Rohn 25
>> Two levels of guying is acceptable with Rohn 25 up to 70 feet. Rohn 45 will
>> go to 90 feet with two levels of guying.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 12/1/2011 11:53 AM, Drax Felton wrote:
>>> Isn't the a half wave high tower the general rule of thumb for a decent dx
>>> angle?
>>>
>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m) you need more guys with Rohn 25 and the work
>>> difficulty starts increasing rapidly.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 1, 2011, at 12:31 AM, towertalk-request at contesting.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
>>>> towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>
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>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Determine cost-effective tower height (Andreas Hofmann)
>>>> 2. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Jim Lux)
>>>> 3. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Dick Dievendorff)
>>>> 4. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Gene Fuller)
>>>> 5. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Dick Dievendorff)
>>>> 6. FW: Determine cost-effective tower height (km5vi)
>>>> 7. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Jim Lux)
>>>> 8. top loaded vertical radial length (LY2KZ)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 00:47:46 +0000
>>>> From: Andreas Hofmann<Andreas.Hofmann at microsoft.com>
>>>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>> To: "towertalk at contesting.com"<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>
>>>> <A9B46A478518064C8E335B938C8768840EBE9F66 at TK5EX14MBXC288.redmond.corp
>>>> .microsoft.com>
>>>>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air. Thinking
>>>> about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my property slopes
>>>> pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need to determine a proper
>>>> tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>
>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height of the
>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend of
>>>> mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that a
>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground. Hence
>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the program
>>>> he used.
>>>>
>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of a tower
>>>> that would work well here?
>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a metal roof
>>>> (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Andreas
>>>> KU7T
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:59:54 -0800
>>>> From: Jim Lux<jimlux at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>> Message-ID:<4ED6D18A.10405 at earthlink.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need to
>>>>> determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height of the
>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend of
>>>>> mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that a
>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>> Hence he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of a tower
>>>>> that would work well here?
>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a metal roof
>>>>> (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>
>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>> you want. You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from
>>>> DEM files, etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>
>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:25:50 -0800
>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<001b01ccafc8$29967cf0$7cc376d0$@comcast.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>>>
>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included Dean's
>>>> programs.
>>>>
>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>
>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>> of the
>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend
>>>> of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that
>>>> a
>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground. Hence
>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>> program he used.
>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>> a
>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>> metal
>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>
>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what you want.
>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>
>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:09:30 -0500
>>>> From: "Gene Fuller"<w2lu at rochester.rr.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>> To: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>, "'Jim Lux'"
>>>> <jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<E2520ACDBCEE43858C2FEB22186E5240 at FamilyRoom>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, HFTA is the way to go. ARRL Antenna Handbook ed 21 includes
>>>> the software and instrustrutions you will need. A little hand held
>>>> GPS will give you your tower location, and a fair bit of
>>>> determination for the novice, will give you a great picture of what you have
>>>> to work with.
>>>> Gene / W2LU
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>;<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included
>>>>> Dean's programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>>> of the
>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a
>>>>> friend of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he
>>>>> found out that a
>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>> Hence
>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>>> a
>>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>>> metal
>>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>
>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>>> you want.
>>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:19:50 -0800
>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>> To: "'Gene Fuller'"<w2lu at rochester.rr.com>, "'Jim Lux'"
>>>> <jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<001801ccafcf$b4a4c4d0$1dee4e70$@comcast.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>
>>>> Google Earth is another (free) tool that you can use to determine the
>>>> latitude and longitude of your specific antenna location.
>>>>
>>>> Dick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gene Fuller [mailto:w2lu at rochester.rr.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:10 PM
>>>> To: Dick Dievendorff; 'Jim Lux'; towertalk at contesting.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>
>>>> Agreed, HFTA is the way to go. ARRL Antenna Handbook ed 21 includes
>>>> the software and instrustrutions you will need. A little hand held
>>>> GPS will give you your tower location, and a fair bit of
>>>> determination for the novice, will give you a great picture of what you have
>>>> to work with.
>>>> Gene / W2LU
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>;<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included
>>>>> Dean's programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>>> of the
>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a
>>>>> friend of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he
>>>>> found out that a
>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>> Hence
>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>>> a
>>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>>> metal
>>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>
>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>>> you want.
>>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
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>
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