[TowerTalk] Cost effectivel Tower height
W0MU Mike Fatchett
w0mu at w0mu.com
Sat Dec 3 06:24:13 PST 2011
I would agree that a 70 ft tower is a good option for most band if you
do not want to go higher. I have the AN Wireless 70ft tower with a
SteppIR at 71 ft and the Cushcraft XM240 about 12 to 14 ft above the
SteppIR.
My next tower projects will be crankups while I am still fairly young
each year I get less and less interested in climbing.
Mike W0MU
W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net
On 12/2/2011 10:40 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> I think ALL of that is great advice, at least partly because I pretty
> much did exactly that when I installed my system three years ago ;)
>
> I have an Optibeam OB16-3 tribander three feet above the top of a 70
> foot AN Wireless freestanding tower with an Optibeam coil-loaded 2
> element 40m yagi about 12 feet higher up the mast, both turned by a
> Prosistel PST-61D rotator. I did it that way because I wanted the extra
> height on 40m, but I came very close to simply buying the OB12-4 and it
> certainly would have been an easier installation. I think the 12-4 is a
> great option.
>
> Whatever you do for antennas, do not undersize your freestanding
> tower. Both Trylon and AN Wireless are good choices to improve the
> odds that neither you or your antennas end up in a heap on the ground.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 12/1/2011 1:11 PM, ve4xt at mymts.net wrote:
>> You have to get HFTA. It's just that simple. You'll get a good picture of
>> what your antennas need and it will help you avoid overkill, which helps
>> avoid added costs. Too high an effective height can be just as bad as too
>> low.
>>
>> Because your antenna is likely to be a big one, you're probably going to be
>> giving Dan at AN Wireless or the folks at Champion Radio (for Trylon) a
>> call. (Especially if you have to stick to freestanding.)
>>
>> I would be leery of mounting something with more than one 40-m element on a
>> BX style of tower.
>>
>> When choosing a rotator, don't merely go by the square footage of the
>> antenna. Some antennas with relatively small surface area can overload a
>> rotator based on their turning radius and weight.
>>
>> For antennas, I'd check out Optibeam's OB8-4 or OB12-4 or Force 12's
>> Delta4XL. I'd suggest at least a Yaesu 2800 or HyGain HDR300 or something by
>> Create, Prosistel or Alfa for the rotator.
>>
>> I know you don't want stacks, but you might want to consider a tribander at
>> the thrust bearing and a 2-el shorty forty above that. It's doable on the
>> right freestanding tower.
>>
>> A bit of separation, and/or 90-degree offset, can help reduce interaction
>> between the 40m and 15m elements.
>>
>> 73, kelly
>> ve4xt
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/1/11 12:47 PM, "Andreas Hofmann"<Andreas.Hofmann at microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have received an overwhelming response to my questions. I should have
>>> mentioned a few more points/requirements:
>>>
>>> - single multiband beam 40 - 10. No stacks. I am running verticals and wires
>>> hanging in trees and can hear ok, but are not being heard well on 40 for
>>> example. I want at least a few S units improvement and F/B would be great as
>>> well.
>>> - I like DX and DX contesting, but casually. Focus on Europe.
>>> - self supporting, no guy wires
>>> - low profile to appease to wife and neighbors
>>> - cheap. This is a hobby for me and I am not retired (:-)
>>> - account for the sloping terrain, so if it can be lower because of it, yes,
>>> yes, hence cheaper.
>>>
>>> I understand that any multi-band beam is a compromise.
>>> I understand that any beam might not work to its maximum into all DX
>>> directions (different angles needed).
>>>
>>> At this point, I want to thank all of you for your input. I will run the
>>> suggested software and report back with my findings.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Andreas
>>> KU7T
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:08 AM
>>> To: Drax Felton; [TowerTalk]
>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Cost effectivel Tower height
>>>
>>>
>>>> Isn't the a half wave high tower the general rule of thumb for a> decent dx
>>>> angle?
>>> No, 1/2 wave is where a horizontally polarized antenna shows its first null
>>> directly overhead.
>>>
>>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m)
>>> 60 ft is 0.86 wave on 20 meters (14 MHz) - one wavelength is 70 feet.
>>>
>>> If I had to choose a single tower height *over flat ground* it would be
>>> 70 feet. That represents 1/2 wave on 40 meters - a point that a dipole or two
>>> element Yagi has some decent (but not world beating) performance
>>> - and a useful height for an 80 meter inverted V or a place to hang inverted L
>>> antennas for 160 and 80. In addition, 70 feet in 1 1/5 wave on 15 meters
>>> (perhaps the most useful overall height for DX) and 2 waves on 10 (high but
>>> not too high except for short skip).
>>>
>>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m) you need more guys with Rohn 25
>>> Two levels of guying is acceptable with Rohn 25 up to 70 feet. Rohn 45 will
>>> go to 90 feet with two levels of guying.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/1/2011 11:53 AM, Drax Felton wrote:
>>>> Isn't the a half wave high tower the general rule of thumb for a decent dx
>>>> angle?
>>>>
>>>> After 60ft (1/2 wave on 20m) you need more guys with Rohn 25 and the work
>>>> difficulty starts increasing rapidly.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 1, 2011, at 12:31 AM, towertalk-request at contesting.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Send TowerTalk mailing list submissions to
>>>>> towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> towertalk-request at contesting.com
>>>>>
>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> towertalk-owner at contesting.com
>>>>>
>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than "Re: Contents of TowerTalk digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Determine cost-effective tower height (Andreas Hofmann)
>>>>> 2. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Jim Lux)
>>>>> 3. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Dick Dievendorff)
>>>>> 4. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Gene Fuller)
>>>>> 5. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Dick Dievendorff)
>>>>> 6. FW: Determine cost-effective tower height (km5vi)
>>>>> 7. Re: Determine cost-effective tower height (Jim Lux)
>>>>> 8. top loaded vertical radial length (LY2KZ)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 00:47:46 +0000
>>>>> From: Andreas Hofmann<Andreas.Hofmann at microsoft.com>
>>>>> Subject: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>> To: "towertalk at contesting.com"<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>
>>>>> <A9B46A478518064C8E335B938C8768840EBE9F66 at TK5EX14MBXC288.redmond.corp
>>>>> .microsoft.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air. Thinking
>>>>> about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my property slopes
>>>>> pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need to determine a proper
>>>>> tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height of the
>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend of
>>>>> mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that a
>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground. Hence
>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the program
>>>>> he used.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of a tower
>>>>> that would work well here?
>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a metal roof
>>>>> (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Andreas
>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:59:54 -0800
>>>>> From: Jim Lux<jimlux at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>> Message-ID:<4ED6D18A.10405 at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need to
>>>>>> determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height of the
>>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend of
>>>>>> mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that a
>>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>>> Hence he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of a tower
>>>>>> that would work well here?
>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a metal roof
>>>>>> (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>
>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>>> you want. You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from
>>>>> DEM files, etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:25:50 -0800
>>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Message-ID:<001b01ccafc8$29967cf0$7cc376d0$@comcast.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>>>>>
>>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included Dean's
>>>>> programs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>>> of the
>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a friend
>>>>> of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he found out that
>>>>> a
>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground. Hence
>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>>> a
>>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>>> metal
>>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>
>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what you want.
>>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 21:09:30 -0500
>>>>> From: "Gene Fuller"<w2lu at rochester.rr.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>> To: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>, "'Jim Lux'"
>>>>> <jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Message-ID:<E2520ACDBCEE43858C2FEB22186E5240 at FamilyRoom>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>> reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, HFTA is the way to go. ARRL Antenna Handbook ed 21 includes
>>>>> the software and instrustrutions you will need. A little hand held
>>>>> GPS will give you your tower location, and a fair bit of
>>>>> determination for the novice, will give you a great picture of what you have
>>>>> to work with.
>>>>> Gene / W2LU
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>;<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included
>>>>>> Dean's programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a
>>>>>> friend of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he
>>>>>> found out that a
>>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>>> Hence
>>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>>>> metal
>>>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>>>> you want.
>>>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 18:19:50 -0800
>>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>> To: "'Gene Fuller'"<w2lu at rochester.rr.com>, "'Jim Lux'"
>>>>> <jimlux at earthlink.net>,<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Message-ID:<001801ccafcf$b4a4c4d0$1dee4e70$@comcast.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>>>
>>>>> Google Earth is another (free) tool that you can use to determine the
>>>>> latitude and longitude of your specific antenna location.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Gene Fuller [mailto:w2lu at rochester.rr.com]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:10 PM
>>>>> To: Dick Dievendorff; 'Jim Lux'; towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed, HFTA is the way to go. ARRL Antenna Handbook ed 21 includes
>>>>> the software and instrustrutions you will need. A little hand held
>>>>> GPS will give you your tower location, and a fair bit of
>>>>> determination for the novice, will give you a great picture of what you have
>>>>> to work with.
>>>>> Gene / W2LU
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dick Dievendorff"<dieven at comcast.net>
>>>>> To: "'Jim Lux'"<jimlux at earthlink.net>;<towertalk at contesting.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:25 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think HFTA is by Dean Straw, N6BV. In any case, it's the program
>>>>>> you want for this. Ward edited the new Antenna Book, and included
>>>>>> Dean's programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dick, K6KR
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
>>>>>> [mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Jim Lux
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:00 PM
>>>>>> To: towertalk at contesting.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Determine cost-effective tower height
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/30/11 4:47 PM, Andreas Hofmann wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have decided I need a tower to get better antennas up in the air.
>>>>>> Thinking about the SteppIR DB 18, 40m 2 el, 20 and up 3el. Now, my
>>>>>> property slopes pretty much in every direction by 5 degrees. I need
>>>>>> to determine a proper tower height without breaking the bank.
>>>>>>> I was told I should run a computer program to figure a good height
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> yagi for my most important directions/DX locations. In fact a
>>>>>> friend of mine did the same (on a similarly sloping property) and he
>>>>>> found out that a
>>>>>> 55 foot tower would be similar to a 120 foot tower on a flat ground.
>>>>>> Hence
>>>>>> he put up a 55 foot crank up mast and it is rocking. He forgot the
>>>>>> program he used.
>>>>>>> So, what tool can I use to find the optimal (not maximal) height of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> tower that would work well here?
>>>>>>> Also, the tower would be setting on the side of the house with a
>>>>>>> metal
>>>>>> roof (roof about 15 feet high), not sure if this would matter...
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Andreas
>>>>>>> KU7T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> HFTA by Ward Silver which comes with the ARRL Antenna Book is what
>>>>>> you want.
>>>>>> You enter in the surrounding terrain (or extract it from DEM files,
>>>>>> etc.) and it calculates the pattern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only works for horizontally polarized antennas, by the way.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TowerTalk mailing list
>>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TowerTalk mailing list
>> TowerTalk at contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
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