[TowerTalk] TowerTalk Digest, Vol 113, Issue 17

[KB1STH Ivan Shapiro]

I, too, am considering a camera on my 89 foot US Tower HDX589MDPL.
The camera is a SONY PTZ camera with heater/blower (Northern Maine).
It feeds with 24 VAC and Cat5e. Also analog coax.
My question/concern is whether RF up to 1 KW will affect/harm the camera.
I assume the Cat5e should be shielded.
Also (though less important) is whether transmission will likely distort the
feed.
I can live with this just fine, because when transmitting I won't need to
see the picture.
I have several SONY PTZ's feeding the home network via Cat 5e.  The coax
feeds a DVR and via modulators feeds the TV.
Ivan Shapiro KB1STH
Fort Fairfield, Maine



-----Original Message-----
From: towertalk-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:towertalk-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
towertalk-request at contesting.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 10:36 AM
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: TowerTalk Digest, Vol 113, Issue 17

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Prosistel PST-61 or PST-2051 (a word of warning) (K8RI)
   2. Re: Help With First Tower (john at kk9a.com)
   3. Re: Help With First Tower (john at kk9a.com)
   4. WHICH ROTOR TO USE? (Jim Thomson)
   5. Re: Help With First Tower (Pete Smith N4ZR)
   6. Re: Prosistel PST-61 or PST-2051 (a word of warning) (Kimo Chun)
   7. Remote tower-mounted camera (William Hein)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 17:40:12 -0400
From: K8RI <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Prosistel PST-61 or PST-2051 (a word of
	warning)
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4FA8413C.5070301 at tm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 5/7/2012 3:27 AM, Andy GD0TEP wrote:
> A word of warning about the PST61...
>
> The PST61 looks man enough to turn most large antenna systems, BUT, that
> large and strong look is let down by what you cant see...


>
> The main body of the rotator is well built, and, in principle, would turn
a
> house :-)
>
> The main body is fastened (bolted) to the lower casting (that bolts to
your
> tower) using only FOUR 1/4 inch machine screw, yes.. that's not a typo...
> 1/4 inch machine screws. The casting has no other locating pins, or
> interlocking castelations...  So, please have that in mind when you buy
your
> rotator for your large antenna system....

I was turning this http://www.rogerhalstead.com/ham_files/Tower29.htm 
with the old style rotator until the top seal gave out. It destroyed a 
TB3 and TB4

>
> I have pictures of my PST61 once it had failed here:
> http://gd0tep.com/pst61/PST61.htm (and how i fixed it)

Do you have a photo of the 4 threaded holes straight on?

>
> The control unit main transformer is (in my opinion) under rated if your
> turning a large antenna... Where I am, the local contest group has 6
> prosistel rotator, a mix of PST61, PST51 and PST2051, and we've had FOUR
> transformer failures, after the first unit failed a second time, we pulled
> the 100va transformer and fitted a 150va.
I've had no problems with that in nearly 10 years.  OTOH when I first 
started out I only had a Ham IV which I figured would hold things if I 
didn't try to move the antennas in the wind. That failed in a few days.  
Then I tried the HDR300.  It lasted until I tried to move the antennas 
on a moderate windy day.  As soon as I released the brake the whole 
stack spun around destroying the 4 LMR-400UF pigtails.

Which control unit do you have. I have the digital read out with 
computer interface.  It's about a 200 foot run from control to rotator.

They now have a US distributor for information and maintenance/Warranty 
now.  http://www.arraysolutions.com/ so you no longer have to deal with 
the factory.

I believe they no longer use gear lube, but are packed with grease.  The 
rotator is very easy to work on and uses common parts *EXCEPT* for that 
large diameter bronze worm gear wheel.  After taking a bath in gear lube 
and making one whale of a mess I decided to make some changes.  (good 
thing I have a concrete floor with 5 coats of epoxy) out in the shop.   
If you wonder what the innards are like 
http://www.rogerhalstead.com/Gears.htm  On mine I think  photo 32 shows 
the 4 bolts that hold the base to the body adapter.

I think those bolts in mine are M5 rather than slightly smaller 1/4 
inch.  Next time  you have to rebuild one see if a machine shop can add 
another bolt between each of the present ones.   If you pack it with 
grease like I think the factory does now and I did in mine, there is no 
problem drilling straight through into the case. Thread the case, use a 
SS flat washer, lock washer, and then a nut (if there is room.  IOW use 
studs with lock washers nuts on each end. These bolts have to be tight! 
(without stripping the threads.)
Remember this is the old style rotator with the AC motor and top seal 
that can trap water.

73

Roger (K8RI)



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 21:45:42 -0000
From: <john at kk9a.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
To: <TOWERTALK at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <70BCC2EC91C644DCBC8DC104A1DEB623 at kk9a>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

The map on http://www.qrz.com/db/kk6bt has his station right in the water!



To:<towertalk at contesting.com>
Subject:Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
From:"David Thompson" <thompson at mindspring.com>
Reply-to:David Thompson <thompson at mindspring.com>
Date:Sun, 6 May 2012 21:58:53 -0400
List-post:<towertalk at contesting.com">mailto:towertalk at contesting.com>

I looked back at e-mails from Wayne to towertalk and found his call as
KK6BT.

He is located as follows:

WAYNE E WILLENBERG, KK6BT
10 QUIET COVE WAY
LADYS ISLAND, SC 29907
USA

This is just North of Beaufort, SC which is on or near the coast.  I will
leave it to those with detailed
maps of average and max wind speed.  120 MPH max is not out of the question.

Dave K4JRB 



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 21:45:44 -0000
From: <john at kk9a.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
To: <TOWERTALK at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <EAA94E69879E4991AF96D1CFEE07E5C5 at kk9a>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Guy wires can really get in the way if you want to rotate side mounted 
antennas.  A stronger tower with less guy wires is by far the better option.

Rohn also makes a solid leg 45 tower which may be worth considering..

John


To:towertalk at contesting.com
Subject:Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
From:Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
Date:Sun, 06 May 2012 12:29:35 -0700
List-post:<towertalk at contesting.com">mailto:towertalk at contesting.com>

On 5/6/12 11:58 AM, Wayne Willenberg wrote:
>
> Here is the dilemma the designer has presented to me.  (The following are
> not real examples, but are just used to illustrate the point.)  I could 
> use
> Rohn 25 with 18 total guys or I could use Rohn 65 with 9 guys.  In the
> first case, the tower sections would cost less than in the second case, 
> but
> there would be more labor in installing 19 guys (and the guys would cost
> more) than 9 guys. Also, the amount of concrete in the base and the guy
> anchors would be different.
>
>
> There must be a way to determine the most cost-effective selection of type
> of tower and number of guys.
>
>
short of actually calculating it out, not really..


However, fewer parts is better.  9 guys & 65 is a whole lot simpler.
(and easier to stand on for climbing, and easier to fit things like
rotators in).  If you're going up high enough to need 3 guy levels on
65, you're not just turning that TV antenna.

If you're dragging something up the tower, half the number of guys will
be good.  Your installer will like you more.




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 04:44:16 -0700
From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom at telus.net>
Subject: [TowerTalk] WHICH ROTOR TO USE?
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <4D15FE4273B14F818E404FBEC4B1485C at JimPC>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 20:17:52 -0400
From: K8RI <K8RI-on-TowerTalk at tm.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] WHICH ROTOR TO USE?


The Orion 2800 was one of the other rotators I was trying to think of 
which I believe uses a double worm gear drive and pulse direction 
indication.

###  The OR-2800  does NOT  use a double worm gear drive.  It?s
just a single worm gear drive.   While the upper clamp on the OR-2800
may well look massive and heavy duty, its junk, toss it.  The teeth will
not bite into anything, esp  heat treated chromolly steel or DOM. 
Replace it  with either the clamp assy from K7LXC... OR the
one from kurt Andress, K7NV.   The one that Kurt makes for
the OR-2800 is the same design as what he uses for his prop
pitchs.  IE: they pinch the mast almost a full 340 degrees.  The surface
area is just massive  vs the tiny amount used on the teeth of the oem
clamp. 

##  The OR-2800 control box is fubar..although it works.  The GH
box blows it away hands down.  




The Canadian built, AlphaSpid is a great rotator that I believe fits 
inside a 25G has rotational torque of 3200 inch# and holding torque of 
14,000 in #
Price was roughly the same as the Ham IV with a digital control box or 
about $1200. With the current exchange rate I'd guess it to be some 
where between $1400 and $1500. OTOH I've not heard much about them for 
a while. They are "I believe" sold stateside by MFJ.

##  My understanding is the Alpha Spid is built in Poland,and that Don
Morman, VE6JY, owner of Alpha radio, is just the importer and distributor
for them.   MFJ is now the US distributor. 

##http://www.spid.alpha.pl/english/09.php

## here is a list of dealers world wide.
http://www.spid.alpha.pl/english/08.php

##  exchange rate is at par  between US and Canada.  If you are in the usa,
you
may as well buy one from mfj....and cross your fingers. 

##  I would take all these rotating torque numbers with a grain of salt,
since
most are pure BS, when actually measured.   We have all sorts of nonsense,
ranging
from...  start up torque, running torque, stall torque, braking torque, etc.


##  the prositel  numbers are not real.   If you look at any of these
rotators, the
start up current in the motor is easily triple the running current.  Hence
the..
start up torque numbers they quote  are much greater than the running
torque number.   That high start up current only last 1-3 seconds when you
measure it. 
As noted, the upper and lower casings shoulda been welded
together, instead of using 4 x  tiny machine screws.   They went cheap on
the
power xfmr.  It may well be an issue of using a 60 hz rated xfmr on 50 hz...
which will surely cook it. 

##  brake wedges  are steam engine technology.  The T2X is rated for
1000 in lbs =  83 ft lbs of torque.   1000 divided by 12 = 83.   83 ft lbs
is  miniscule.   The ham-4-5   is even less, at  just 800 in lbs = 66 ft
lbs.
These are toy rotors at best.  Potentiometers  are passe these days. A buddy
has replaced
several of the bournes pots in his protistel PST-61. 

##  If you folks intend on turning a big array, at least try and torque
balance each
ant in the array, with either a counterweight....And-OR  a torque
compensation
plate.  That is all explained on kurts  site.    I used his software to
design several of them
with great success.    One fellow tested his hb 20m yagi  with and without
the TQ plate
on a short tower, with NO rotor..and in a high wind.   With the TQ plate
done right, the yagi
will NOT windmill in the wind.   With out the TQ plate, it will literally
bust the wedge brake 
and then rip the gears apart in his T2X.   

##  The 83 ft lbs of TQ  pales in comparison to the 1250 ft lbs of TQ  from
a small prop pitch  from k7nv.   The small prop pitch + mating GH box
+  k7NV  super mast clamp is the ultimate solution.  GH makes  a special
version of their box, made esp for the K7NV Prop pitch.  Kurt has
modified the PP, so it uses digital pulses  from the magnets he installs. 
It uses a hammond xfmr inside the GH box..for the PP...and only outputs
one dcv. 

##  The mast clamp that K7LXC uses for the OR-2800  is for a 2 inch mast
only.  The K7NV version is  for a  2 inch mast also...and he also makes a 3
inch version and any other mast od you want to use, like 2.875 inch, etc. 
They work, because they are designed  for one OD of mast.   My 2 inch OD
x  .375 inch thick chromolly mast just barely slides into the k7nv clamp
assy.   You barely tighten the 5 x bolts, and it pinchs the mast so tight,
it will never slip on you. 

##  The GH box is slick, like having a 9 speed automatic transmission
in a car.  Starts off slow, then ramps up to full speed... whizs  over to 
Europe, then starts the slowing down  ramp down.   You wouldn?t put
your car into park..while driving  down main street, so  don?t do it on
a  rotor either.  

##  whatever size rotor you buy, go one size up, and don?t go cheap.
If you destroy it, then you have to spend $$  to fix it, then spend even
more
$$$  to buy the bigger rotor to handle the job.  Or  expect  a repeat 
of the destruction on your rebuilt rotor.  Wind pressure goes up to the
SQUARE of the  wind speed.   A 70 mph wind is DOUBLE the impact pressure
of a 50 mph wind.   And a 83 mph wind gust  is  TRIPLE the pressure of a 
50 mph wind.   Any gust only has to last just a few seconds to rip an
under rated rotor apart. 

##  You will  save  nothing buying a small rotor, trust me.  

Later..... Jim  VE7RF




73

Roger (K8RI)


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 08 May 2012 07:46:17 -0400
From: Pete Smith N4ZR <n4zr at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <4FA90789.4080607 at contesting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I am living proof of that - my 97' Rohn 25 tower was installed with the 
guys at the recommended stations and the guy anchors at the 
Rohn-recommended distance from the base.  I now really wish that I had 
installed my guy anchors another 15 feet or so out, because it would 
have given me more wiggle room for my side-mounted tribander, and more 
flexibility in where on the tower I mounted it.

73, Pete N4ZR
The World Contest Station Database, updated daily at www.conteststations.com
The Reverse Beacon Network at http://reversebeacon.net, blog at
reversebeacon.blogspot.com,
spots at telnet.reversebeacon.net, port 7000 and
arcluster.reversebeacon.net, port 7000


On 5/7/2012 5:45 PM, john at kk9a.com wrote:
> Guy wires can really get in the way if you want to rotate side mounted
> antennas.  A stronger tower with less guy wires is by far the better
option.
> Rohn also makes a solid leg 45 tower which may be worth considering..
>
> John
>
>
> To:towertalk at contesting.com
> Subject:Re: [TowerTalk] Help With First Tower
> From:Jim Lux<jimlux at earthlink.net>
> Date:Sun, 06 May 2012 12:29:35 -0700
> List-post:<towertalk at contesting.com">mailto:towertalk at contesting.com>
>
> On 5/6/12 11:58 AM, Wayne Willenberg wrote:
>> Here is the dilemma the designer has presented to me.  (The following are
>> not real examples, but are just used to illustrate the point.)  I could
>> use
>> Rohn 25 with 18 total guys or I could use Rohn 65 with 9 guys.  In the
>> first case, the tower sections would cost less than in the second case,
>> but
>> there would be more labor in installing 19 guys (and the guys would cost
>> more) than 9 guys. Also, the amount of concrete in the base and the guy
>> anchors would be different.
>>
>>
>> There must be a way to determine the most cost-effective selection of
type
>> of tower and number of guys.
>>
>>
> short of actually calculating it out, not really..
>
>
> However, fewer parts is better.  9 guys&  65 is a whole lot simpler.
> (and easier to stand on for climbing, and easier to fit things like
> rotators in).  If you're going up high enough to need 3 guy levels on
> 65, you're not just turning that TV antenna.
>
> If you're dragging something up the tower, half the number of guys will
> be good.  Your installer will like you more.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TowerTalk mailing list
> TowerTalk at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
>


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 09:24:56 -1000
From: "Kimo Chun" <kimo at lava.net>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Prosistel PST-61 or PST-2051 (a word of
	warning)
To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <C4E53E8D00244F06866BED1D251496A2 at TOSHIBAKimo>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

I agree with Andy.

We went through two Prosistel rotators. We got our money back on the third.
We went to prop pitch rotators with Green Heron controllers from Kurt, K7NV.

 

Agreed. In our case the rotator motor housing was connected to its base
housing with those 4 small machine srews, the base was made of cast aluminum
and they had no steel bushings on the bolts or special bolts with less
thread. In the near constant hammering the antenna (3 ele 40m yagi, full
size) put on the rotator in 5 - 25 mph daily trade winds the bolt threads
filed away the base housing holes until we had a nice pile of aluminum dust
between the base plate and the rotator shelf. We were alerted due to the
water ingress that then destroyed the position pot sticking out the bottom
of the motor housing, not to mention the increasing slop in the whole system
which eventually became visible from the ground.

With 1/2 inch or 5/8 inch bolts(?) (it has been a few years) holding the
base housing to the tower rotator plate, guess which bolts came loose first?
I am not a mechanical engineer but it looks like they could have changed the
location / design of their cast reinforcing ribs on the motor housing so
that half the holes (you can see are blanked out) that are not drilled or
useable to tie the motor housing to the base could be made useful. It
doesn't take an engineer to wonder why you would design 4 large bolts to the
shelf (good) then transfer that arrested torque to only four 1/4 inch bolts
into the motor housing. I suppose at least having a steel base housing may
have helped.

Yes, the motor assembly seems to be beefy enough but the physical
implementation through the base to the tower is poor. I had hoped it would
be redesigned by now (4 or 5 years later). Has it? We were fortunate that
the distributor stood behind his sale but when we spoke to the Prosistel
President in Dayton and presented our detailed analysis he essentially
brushed us off as "being a 2 percent problem" - Meaning you don't make major
manufacturing changes for problems that only affect 2 percent of your
customers. Okay, I suppose I can understand that but I can't see saying that
to the 2 percent to their face!

So, if you have the potential of the hammering that trade winds or
equivalent on a large antenna (within the specs of the rotator) can put on
the rotator don't take the chance you will be part of their 2 percent of
customers. We do have a motor assembly gathering dust on the shelf with at
least a bad pot and base (I don't know its true status).

There is absolutely no comparison between them and prop pitch motors. My
guess is that if an Orion is combined with a Green Heron controller that
would be another somewhat less durable choice.  We have used a number of old
Wilson WR-1000 (like T2X on steroids - running on 120VAC), M2 Orion - with
their digital controller (difficult to use), 3 Prosistel rotators and a T2x
on our 5 el 10M yagi. We have changed most to K7NV small prop pitches and
one medium on the 80m yagi. I think we still have the T2X but it is also
controlled by a Green Heron controller (none better). No problems anymore.

I apologize for getting on their case as we did get some satisfaction but
since someone else has broached the subject (and issue) I feel justified in
letting people know our experience and to exercise adequate caution in their
application or make another selection.

 

73,

Kimo Chun, KH7U

 

 

 

Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 07:27:46 -0000

From: "Andy GD0TEP" <andy at gd0tep.com>

Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Prosistel PST-61 or PST-2051 (a word of

     warning)

To: <towertalk at contesting.com>

Message-ID: <00cc01cd2c22$e696b8c0$b3c42a40$@com>

Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="US-ASCII"

 

A word of warning about the PST61...

 

The PST61 looks man enough to turn most large antenna systems, BUT, that
large and strong look is let down by what you cant see...

 

The main body of the rotator is well built, and, in principle, would turn a
house :-) 

 

The main body is fastened (bolted) to the lower casting (that bolts to your

tower) using only FOUR 1/4 inch machine screw, yes.. that's not a typo...

1/4 inch machine screws. The casting has no other locating pins, or
interlocking castelations...  So, please have that in mind when you buy your
rotator for your large antenna system....

 

I have pictures of my PST61 once it had failed here:

http://gd0tep.com/pst61/PST61.htm (and how i fixed it)

 

The control unit main transformer is (in my opinion) under rated if your
turning a large antenna... Where I am, the local contest group has 6
prosistel rotator, a mix of PST61, PST51 and PST2051, and we've had FOUR
transformer failures, after the first unit failed a second time, we pulled
the 100va transformer and fitted a 150va.

 

The prosistel design is a great idea, that in my opinion is poorly
implemented.

 

73

 

Andy

http://gd0tep.com <http://gd0tep.com/> 

 

 

 



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 08:35:20 -0600
From: William Hein <bill.aa7xt at gmail.com>
Subject: [TowerTalk] Remote tower-mounted camera
To: towertalk at contesting.com
Message-ID: <6D3A9578-446A-4D29-A636-99C24E4978D6 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii

I'm curious about the viability of putting a remote video camera on my new
70-foot AN Wireless tower, the first tower I am installing at my new QTH in
Western Colorado.  The Tower base will be about 100-feet from my shack and
the coax and feedlines will be run through conduit.

Ideally I'd like to have the camera mounted on the rotating mast.  Anyone
out there done this?  If so, any tips or advice?  hard-wired?  If
hard-wired, what type of cable?  WiFi?  if WiFi, how to power?  Make/model?
Etc.

73
Bill

-----
William Hein, AA7XT
(ex-AA4XT, NT1Y, AA6TT, KC6EDP)

AMSAT Life Member
ARRL Life Member
UKSMG Member

1st W to OH0 QSO on 6m
1st North America to Asia QSO on 60m
Founder of TopBand email reflector

Web   www.AA7XT.com
Tel   +1 (970) 628-5120
Email   Bill.AA7XT at Gmail.com
Loc:  DM59pa
Web   twitter.com/williamhein
AIM / iChat / iMessage   william.hein at me.com
Skype   williamhein
about.me/williamhein#





------------------------------

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End of TowerTalk Digest, Vol 113, Issue 17
******************************************