[TowerTalk] Change in Frequency As Antenna Height Rises

Tue May 31 11:31:11 EDT 2016

###  what coax ?   MFJ-259 connects to balun via double male..or in extreme 
rare cases, a 1-2 ft jumper.
Done on each ele of the 40m yagi.
But 40m els removed from boom, and hauled up the tower..one at a time.
80m rotary dipole mounted almost to top of mast..same deal though, mfj to 
balun..via a double male connector
Yes, an aim 4170 will work as you described.

Jim  VE7RF

-----Original Message----- 
From: Grant Saviers
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:03 AM
To: Jim Thomson ; towertalk at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Change in Frequency As Antenna Height Rises

Perhaps this debate is really a measurement problem ---

I think the important thing to remember is that a SWR bridge is probably
NOT going to measure resonance when attached to some random length of
coax hanging in the air to an antenna.

What is needed is an analyzer that can be calibrated with the
measurement plane at the far end of the coax.  A VNWA, AIM4170, SARK110,
etc. can be calibrated with S/O/L on the end of the cable so the
measurement plane is at the antenna.  Then when jX = 0 you have
resonance.  However, even then real R might not be 50 ohms, not 1:1
SWR.  Otherwise some complex Z probably transforms to 1:1 SWR on an SWR
bridge at some other frequency than Fres depending on the length of coax.

Grant KZ1W

On 5/31/2016 7:01 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2016 08:27:27 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Dan Maguire <djm2150 at yahoo.com>
> To: <towertalk at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Change in Frequency As Antenna Height Rises
>
> Jim VE7RF wrote:
>>>> There is NO way in hell that the 66 ft long dipole, made from 1 inch OD 
>>>> tubing, is gonna shift 210 khz upwards in freq, when the tubing dipole 
>>>> is elevated from 30 ft to 60 ft.
> I sure don't see anything in the model that would tax the capabilities of 
> NEC so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.  However, in 
> playing around a bit more I did stumble on something that may be of 
> interest to those folks who still put at least a little faith in antenna 
> modeling.
>
> I started with model 340-48H.YW from the ARRL Antenna Book CD, a 3L 40m 
> Yagi with a 48 ft boom, and used the Scale.exe DOS program to convert the 
> elements to monotaper.  I also changed the units from inches to feet. 
> Here's the result:
>
> http://s33.postimg.org/hhm5hxebj/resonate4.png
>
> Then I calculated the frequency of resonance (jX=0 at feedpoint, not 
> necessarily minimum SWR), first for the 3L Yagi and then just for the 
> stand-alone driven element (a dipole of length ~64.8 ft and diameter ~1.5 
> inches), at heights above Average ground from 2.5 to 100 ft.
>
> http://s33.postimg.org/4yn6idnsv/resonate5.png
>
> >From a height of 30 ft to 60 ft the Fres of the *Yagi* changed from 7.278 
> >to 7.258 MHz (-20 KHz).  Over the same range the Fres of the *Dipole* 
> >changed from 7.132 to 7.349 MHz (+217 KHz).  Ground reflection works in 
> >mysterious ways when there is also mutual coupling between multiple 
> >elements.
>
> Bob K6UJ wrote:
>>>> With my 2EL Force 12 40M yagi, I followed Tom Schiller's guidelines and 
>>>> set it up initially at 15 feet above the ground. When I raised it up to 
>>>> 70 feet the resonance frequency increased by 20khz.
> This is a 3L Yagi, not a 2L, but the model shows similar results.  From a 
> height of 15 ft to 70 ft Fres changed from 7.244 to 7.255 MHz (+11 KHz). 
> Since a *Yagi* model seems to be in the same ballpark compared to actual 
> measurements I don't see why a *Dipole* would be any different.
>
> Dan, AC6LA
>
> ##  heres the problem.   f12  sez to check the resonance of each ele, 
> individually.    IE: each of the 3 els  has a center insulator.     The 
> REF  +  DIR normally have a shorting strap across their center insulators. 
> The DE normally has a helical hairpin
> + balun across it.   When tweaking say the REF for resonance  at 6900 khz, 
> the shorting strap on the DIR is removed.   The helical hairpin + balun is 
> also removed from the DE.  Each ele is tweaked one at a time to whatever 
> freq  the manual sez to use.
> Then the shorting straps re-installed  on  REF +  DIR.   Hairpin  + balun 
> re-installed on DE.   A temp balun +  MFJ used to tweak each ele 
> individually.   The F12  N style 40m eles are not full size.  They range 
> from 59 ft for the REF...down
> to aprx  52 ft for the DIR.
>
> ##  If the 40m  dipole alone shifts  upwards 217 khz.... then how come it 
> doesnt shift  217 khz... when a motorized crank up  is  changed from 30 ft 
> to 60 ft ??   It shifts very little.
> A shortened  80m rotary dipole shifts very little from 40 ft to 100 ft.
>
> ##  I say something is amiss  in the model.    Anybody who has a 40m  full 
> sized  wire dipole strung between trees..at  30 ft.... then decides to 
> raise it to 60 ft a year later.... never saw a 217 khz increase in 
> resonant freq.
>
> Jim   VE7RF
>
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