[UK-CONTEST] Score publishing

Tue Jun 13 17:43:45 EDT 2006

Don

What you say makes alot of sense.  Were it that I had the required skills, I
would happily volunteer.  Alas, I do not.

Chris

I don't subscribe to your marketing v technical tags nor to the suggestion
that we choose between the two.  I have no doubt in my mind that adjudicated
logs should be accurately so.  The issue is one of the motivational effect
of feedback and the contrary effect caused by its absence.  I would prefer
to see either claimed or pre-adjudicated scores web published asap after log
receipt deadline AND credibly accurate adjudicated scores published as soon
as possible thereafter.

Dave

I see nothing wrong with publishing claimed scores which prove to be wildly
incorrect.  A claimed score is a claimed score.  Final results should
include both claimed and adjudicated scores.  The delta between claimed and
adjudicated scores would be very interesting.  Publication of both together
would serve to motivate folks to take care over their claims.

Bob, 5B4AGN

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Field" <g3xtt at lineone.net>
To: <UK-Contest at contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Score publishing

> Actually most of what Chris says is misleading (sri Chris!).
>
> It should be trivial in this day and age to produce, not "claimed" scores
> (which are often in error), but pre-adjudicated scores. In other words,
> scores calculated by the adjudicators, on a consistent basis, but before
> checking has taken place. Given that the code should be available to score
> the Cabrillo logs after checking, to run it on those same logs before
> checking is a non-issue.
>
> The problem is that such code doesn't currently exist for all RSGB
contests
> and adjudication is still far more labour intensive than it should be.
What
> we need is a volunteer to take what we do have (for example for the IOTA
> contest) and do whatever is necessary to work on other events. Any PHP and
> MySQL experts out there with time on their hands?
>
> Don G3XTT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: uk-contest-bounces at contesting.com
> [mailto:uk-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of G3SJJ
> Sent: 13 June 2006 21:45
> Cc: UK-Contest at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Score publishing
>
> On a technical basis, I would tend to go with Justin on this one, Bob.
> Unless you re-specify Cabrillo for UK-sponsored contests and require all
> entrants to submit a scored log by having them add a points column, it
> is time consuming to produce a claimed score listing. Having said that,
> I have thought for a long time that from a "marketing" point of view
> (and one which HFCC does seem to have a low interest in) it is really
> vital that a claimed or final listing is published rapidly to maintain
> the momentum of the event which is just happened.
>
> Interestingly, Justin's latest posting confirms my thoughts. Justin,
> claimed score listings are important to maintain the immediate interest.
> An accurately adjudicated final listing 6 months after the event might
> be technically superior but most people want to see how they faired and
> how they compared within a few weeks if not days. Most of the time, the
> final listing is very close to the claimed listing, with maybe a few
> position changes, and anyway it is fairly easy to gauge those. For
> example, based on a typical 2.5% error rate, if you are say 5% higher
> than the person below, you should retain that placing, or may be even
> move up. For me, if I am not in award contention then I am more
> interested in this aspect rather than being made to wait until the final
> technically honed listing.
>
> (A few years ago G3VHB and myself produced the final results for SSB FD
> within a few days of the closing date for entries, so it can be done!)
>
> Pre-Cabrillo it was easier, but the tasks are still the same and last
> years final listing will contain most of the callsigns in this years, so
> producing a list of entrants is simple. I guess it really does come down
> to whether you are interested in a clinically, technically accurate
> final result or whether you go for the "marketing" aspect. I think Bob
> and I would prefer the latter, and I actually think most RSGB sponsored
> events could accommodate this approach now.
>
> Vote M(arketing) or T(echnical) !!
>
> Chris G3SJJ
>
>
> Bob Henderson wrote:
> > Justin,
> >
> > There is always a way for those willing to find it but those satisfied
> > bemoaning the problems they face, never will.
> >
> > If HFCC were to mandate inclusion of claimed score and category of entry
> > into the Cabrillo header or onto a summary sheet in the case of a
> > non-Cabrillo entry, you would have the information required to do this.
> > Failure to meet a mandated requirement would invalidate an entry.
> >
> > You would be publishing "claimed" not "validated" scores.  If some folks
> > want to make fools of themselves by submitting eroneous claimed scores
> then
> > so be it.  You could always asterisk scores which appear inconsistent
with
> > claim summary, were you to consider it appropriate.
> >
> > Where there's the will there's a way.
> >
> > Bob, 5B4AGN
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Justin Snow" <justin at g4tsh.demon.co.uk>
> > To: "Bob Henderson" <bob at 5b4agn.net>; <UK-Contest at contesting.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 6:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Score publishing
> >
> >
> >
> >> Sorry Bob, but I think you don't appreciate where the effort is in this
> >> process.  Publishing something that is given to you on a plate is easy,
> >>
> > our
> >
> >> current web master Tim, M0BEW can do this.  The hard bit is extracting
> the
> >> info from the logs sent to us.  And that assumes they are all in the
same
> >> format and contain a claimed score!  many of those that do are so wide
of
> >> the mark that it is irrelevant anyway.  The entrant may wish to "claim"
a
> >> certain score and publish it.
> >> We do not have any software/robot that will do this so it is a manual
> >>
> > task.
> >
> >> As an entrant I would rather see the adjudicator spend their precious
> time
> >> working out the RESULT of the contest as quickly as possible.  That is
> >>
> > what
> >
> >> we are here for.
> >>
> >> Justin
> >>
> >> cc. UK contest
> >>
> >> At 18:18 13/06/06 +0000, Bob Henderson wrote:
> >>
> >>> Justin
> >>>
> >>> Neither the technology nor the effort is significant.  If you are
> serious
> >>> and the HFCC lacks the technical capability and effort necessary to do
> >>>
> > this,
> >
> >>> then I do indeed offer to do it for you.
> >>>
> >>> The logical place to publish this information is on the HFCC website.
> >>>
> > You
> >
> >>> will need to give me FTP access.
> >>>
> >>> You will need to arrange for claimed score information to be sent to
me
> >>> within hours of the deadline.
> >>>
> >>> I should point out that the process of formatting claimed scores to
send
> >>> them to me is equivalent in labour terms to formatting an html page of
> >>> claimed scores to be uploaded to the HFCC website.  Then the process
of
> >>> linking and loading the page to the site would take no more than a few
> >>> minutes.
> >>>
> >>> Do you have a manager/author for the HFCC website?
> >>>
> >>> Bob, 5B4AGN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Justin Snow" <hfcc.chairman at rsgb.org.uk>
> >>> To: <UK-Contest at contesting.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:50 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Score publishing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> At 17:44 13/06/06 +0000, you wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Not unusual but I take a rather different view!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Whether individuals or teams publish their claimed score is
> >>>>>
> > discretionary
> >
> >>>>> not mandatory.  While such discretion, exists it seems unfair to
> >>>>>
> > pilory
> >
> >>>>> those who choose not to do so.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think a better approach would be for sponsors to:-
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Ensure log submission deadlines are no longer than absolutely
> >>>>>
> >>> necessary.
> >>>
> >>>>> 2. Publish claimed scores to the web within 24 hours after reaching
> >>>>>
> > the
> >
> >>>>> deadline for receipt of entries.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some of our more dynamic European cousins are already doing this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob, 5B4AGN
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> No. 2.  - Great idea Bob, but are you willing to provide the
technology
> >>>>
> >>> and
> >>>
> >>>> effort to do that?  If so let me know.
> >>>>
> >>>> some of our so called more dynamic EU cousins seem to have a lot of
> >>>>
> > free
> >
> >>>> time and cheap resources on their hands.
> >>>>
> >>>> Justin, G4TSH
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Justin Snow  G4TSH
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> UK-Contest mailing list
> >>>> UK-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/uk-contest
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> UK-Contest mailing list
> >>> UK-Contest at contesting.com
> >>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/uk-contest
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Justin Snow  G4TSH
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> UK-Contest at contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/uk-contest
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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