[UK-CONTEST] Fw: Club Calls Results

Wed Jan 31 19:59:46 EST 2007

Should of course have gone here . . .

To: "G3SJJ" <g3sjj at btinternet.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Club Calls Results


> Chris,
>
> Well I've never apologised for being British, neither do I search 
> diligently through contest rules looking for loopholes.
> If you read the thread, you'll see that I'm not complaining about people 
> actually doing that, just suggesting that consideration be given to 
> closing one particular loophole in Club Calls, if indeed the contest 
> organisers had not intended for it to be identified and exploited.  Your 
> last example admirably demonstrates the point.
>
> 73, Peter G3LET
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "G3SJJ" <g3sjj at btinternet.com>
> Cc: "UK Contesting" <uk-contest at contesting.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 11:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Club Calls Results
>
>
>>I haven't the intelligence to understand all of this Pete, but one thing
>> I am certain of, you appear to display some naivety in the contest world.
>>
>> Rules can only go so far and cannot cover all eventualities. Contesters
>> that succeed not only have skills in operating, but also in interpreting
>> the rules.
>>
>> It took me a few years to understand, but put simply, if it doesn't say
>> you can't, then you CAN.
>>
>> There is also the "British effect" which shows up quite often. That of
>> self-imposed rules.
>>
>> Perhaps the best example I can recall is a telephone call I received
>> during my time as chair of HFCC after one of the IOTA contests. The
>> caller wished to complain about a GM group who had a big score and
>> apparently was operating from a hotel with mains electricity. The
>> complainant had self-imposed the NFD rules into his thinking. I have
>> found over the years this a typical British approach. Let's try and make
>> it as difficult as we can for ourselves.
>>
>> I recall our own "fracas" when you strongly disagreed with SO2V
>> technique. I think your argument was that by holding a Run frequency and
>> finding new stations on the 2nd VFO I was breaking some unwritten rule.
>> Again, very much self-imposed on your own thinking.
>>
>> Another example, before Don XTT changed the IOTA rules. At GU8D we had
>> occasionally discussed one station on Sark and one on mainland Guernsey,
>> both EU114. Perfectly reasonable because it didn't say it wasn't allowed
>> in the rules. We actually didn't do it, mainly because we self-imposed
>> the rules. Our Adriatic competitors we not so gullible, we suspect.
>> Guess who beat us?
>>
>> Chris G3SJJ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Hobbs wrote:
>>> Hi Berni,
>>>
>>> A long day at the office!  But belatedly - take your example where 
>>> (let's
>>> say) an un-named club has fielded 3 club stations in the past.  As far 
>>> as I
>>> know they just had to apply and pay the licence fee for these to be 
>>> issued.
>>> The temptation is then to activate them in such a way that it's quite
>>> difficult for contest entrants further away to work them.  Result - a 
>>> bonus
>>> of 450 points for the home team, with minimal effort or operating 
>>> expertise
>>> being required.
>>>
>>> How do I define a scam?  In contest terms, by taking advantage of 
>>> omissions
>>> in the rules to gain advantage in a way that was not foreseen by the 
>>> contest
>>> organisers.  I wouldn't want to dissuade members from turning out to 
>>> support
>>> their club in Club Calls; it's just that if they are given club station
>>> calls to activate there's an immediate 6 for 1 advantage, just by paying 
>>> a
>>> fee.  I'm not sure of the current legislation governing the operation of
>>> club stations, but it wouldn't surprise me if a club station can choose
>>> which particular call it uses from time to time, if it has a range
>>> available.  This could make life even easier for a potential scammer. 
>>> Even
>>> if forbidden by the RSGB general contest rules, it doesn't need to 
>>> actually
>>> enter itself.  To me that's a prima facia case of a rule omission 
>>> leading to
>>> a situation that was not anticipated and certainly not intended. 
>>> Tactics if
>>> you like, but to me it's a plain old scam, not a lot different from the
>>> beach towels that we all know and love to hate.
>>>
>>> Of course I'd love to meet you and the guys to discuss it all over a 
>>> jar,
>>> but where is the club?
>>>
>>> 73, Peter G3LET
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Berni G0IDA" <g0ida at yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Pete,
>>>>
>>>>  I don't see it as a scam but as looking at the rules and applying 
>>>> tactics
>>>> if that is indeed what clubs do. Since there is clearly no limit for 
>>>> Club
>>>> Stations in the rules then every club is open to put on as many or as 
>>>> few
>>>> CS as they see fit in my humble opinion.
>>>>  I also wouldn't see a problem if the rules were changed to say that 
>>>> only
>>>> one CS can be used.
>>>>
>>>>  Can I ask you why you think it is a scam?
>>>>
>>>>  All the best,
>>>>
>>>>  Berni
>>>>  G0IDA
>>>>
>>>>  PS We can discus at the club next Wednesday, would be nice to meet 
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peter Hobbs <peter at tilgate.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>  Hi Berni,
>>>>
>>>> Do I gather then that you're quite happy with the hypothetical scam 
>>>> that I
>>>> anticipated?
>>>>
>>>> 73 Peter G3LET
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Berni G0IDA"
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:31 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [UK-CONTEST] Club Calls Results
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Pete,
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll notice that there is no problem in having more than one Club
>>>>> Station for this contest as Northampton have been doing this for at 
>>>>> least
>>>>> the last 3 years and I'm sure the adjudicators have noticed them.
>>>>> Whether you go QRP with those stations is purely a tactical thing, I
>>>>> would say, as some clubs are out there to win and others just to have 
>>>>> a
>>>>> spot of fun and training.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73's
>>>>>
>>>>> Berni
>>>>> G0IDA
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Hobbs
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to Mike for the very early results for this event, especially
>>>>> considering the extra manual work obviously required to handle the
>>>>> reported discrepancies in club names.
>>>>> I had imagined that each participating club would field *one* club
>>>>> station
>>>>> but looking at the rules, more than one does not appear to be 
>>>>> disallowed,
>>>>> providing that all such stations use calls specifically issued to the
>>>>> club. I do wonder however whether multiple club station entries were
>>>>> envisaged by the organisers and whether consideration should be given 
>>>>> to
>>>>> clarifying this point in the rules. One could imagine a hypothetical
>>>>> situation arising where a club fields a number of QRP club stations in
>>>>> their area that are only capable of working local stations, including 
>>>>> of
>>>>> course their club members . . .
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 Peter G3LET
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> UK-Contest mailing list
>>>>> UK-Contest at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/uk-contest
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>