[VHFcontesting] VHFcontesting Digest, Vol 201, Issue 23

[Roger - W7TZ]

Paul,
I very much agree with the majority of your thoughts. Although it's a
different world out here in the pacific northwest where I have to overcome
geography instead of QRM. One thing I do disagree on is your statement,
"I'm not your competition.". Yes, you are competition. If not for
competition, there is no contest.

73, Roger
W7TZ
CN83ia
Grid Busters
w7tz.webs.com


On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 3:03 AM <vhfcontesting-request at contesting.com>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Digital and Q arrangement contesting (Dennis Allen)
>    2. Fwd:  Digital and Q arrangement contesting (Mike (KA5CVH) Urich)
>    3. Re: Fwd: Digital and Q arrangement contesting (Marshall-K5QE)
>    4. Re: CQ frequency advice? (N1BUG)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:27:25 +0000
> From: Dennis Allen <N9TZL at outlook.com>
> To: "vhfcontesting at contesting.com" <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Subject: [VHFcontesting] Digital and Q arrangement contesting
> Message-ID:
>         <
> DM5PR16MB15005D0BB39275E092C8E1B4E9B10 at DM5PR16MB1500.namprd16.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I had written this a while back but had not posted it yet but its time,
> should have sent it before!
>
> At this point I do not do any digital  mode contesting and I would think
> there are others in the same category. So without  one doing FT8 and alike
> there chances of doing well in contests is pretty limited. So I am
> wondering if they are going to create a non digital class in the VHF/UHF
> contests?
>
> I also do not think the ability to talk to other stations to make Q's via
> chat rooms, phone and such is NOT good. To me it has removed the radio
> related skills that one had learned to locate other stations and make Q's.
> There just are not allot of guys looking around trying to make Q's as
> before because they are on chat rooms and such making arrangements to make
> Q's instead of being on the radio which to me has greatly hurt VHF/UHF
> contesting!!  It has turned into a computer social operating contest not a
> radio operating contest!!
>
> Dennis Allen N9TZL
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 20:20:51 -0500
> From: "Mike (KA5CVH) Urich" <mike at ka5cvh.com>
> To: A VHF Contesting <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>
> Subject: [VHFcontesting] Fwd:  Digital and Q arrangement contesting
> Message-ID:
>         <CA+hFFPmDK=
> rXisghswpmvuMtkgzER+FyHkzVkprrpezqPhVuAg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:27 PM Dennis Allen <N9TZL at outlook.com> wrote:
>
> To me it has removed the radio related skills that one had learned to
> locate other stations and make Q's. There just are not allot of guys
> looking around trying to make Q's as before because they are on chat
> rooms and such making arrangements to make Q's instead of being on the
> radio which to me has greatly hurt VHF/UHF contesting!!  It has turned
> into a computer social operating contest not a radio operating
> contest!!
>
> Mike wrote
>
> I tend to largely agree.  "To me" ... there there is nothing more
> gratifying than spinning across the dial ... hearing that weak signal
> work another station.  You strain to listen to them work two maybe
> three other stations so you can pull out the call and grid so you know
> you've got them right and them make your call.  You may have to call
> them several times before they pull you out of the noise but when
> you've completed the Q and you are proud of your abilities to listen
> into the noise pull out the info, and repeatedly call them until you
> make the exchange.
>
> Now "that's" a Q
>
> --
> Mike Urich KA5CVH
> http://ka5cvh.com
>
> STX ASEC - Training
> PIO Harris County ARES
>
> We may be Volunteers,
> But we're professional.
>
>
> --
> Mike Urich KA5CVH
> http://ka5cvh.com
>
> STX ASEC - Training
> PIO Harris County ARES
>
> We may be Volunteers,
> But we're professional.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 02:18:15 +0000
> From: Marshall-K5QE <k5qe at k5qe.com>
> To: vhfcontesting at contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Fwd: Digital and Q arrangement contesting
> Message-ID: <731975a1-6323-1d0c-b81b-dacdca017b28 at k5qe.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hello everyone interested in this topic:? The essence of legacy
> contesting is "spin the dial and turn the antenna" and hope that you can
> find someone to work. Legacy contesting(HF contesting) is all about how
> you find stations not about how you work stations.? This is only a
> workable solution, because there is a seemingly endless parade of little
> stations to work on HF--think 100W and a dipole on 20M or 40M.? In the
> world of weak signal VHF, especially where the digital modes are
> concerned, you can "spin the dial and turn the antenna" and you will not
> find anyone to work(or at least very few).
>
> JT65 digital EME signals are VERY weak, most of the time.? If you can
> actually hear a signal with your ear, it is a strong one.? You can tune
> the 2M EME band and hear one or two stations, but if you let WSJT "look"
> for signals, there might be dozens of stations there.? What I am trying
> to say is that "spinning the dial and turning the antenna" will not do
> very much.? Actually, in the case of EME, you know where to point the
> antenna.? The EME chat room(s) will let you know who is on, what
> frequency they are on, and what sequence.? This is critical information
> for stations that are quite workable, but below the noise level.
>
> Meteor scatter signals are often somewhat stronger than EME signals.?
> But they are completely random in time.? So, you can "spin the dial" and
> you will not hear anything, so you continue up the band.? A few seconds
> later, a big burn occurs, but you are now not listening on the frequency
> where the burn happened. The same can be said for turning the antenna.?
> You may be pointed out west and then decide to turn the antenna slowly
> to the east.? That is when a ping will occur out west.? The situation
> for meteor scatter is somewhat better than EME, because by agreement
> there are now established "watering holes" where folks hang out for
> digital meteor scatter, at least for 6M and 2M.? Still, it really helps
> to know that W7XYZ/R is in DN12, calling CQ on 50.265MHz.
>
> FT8 is somewhat similar to digital meteor scatter(MSK144). Signals are
> weak, often below what can be heard with the ear. So, "spinning the dial
> and turning the antenna" is not going to work.? Only because we have the
> agreed upon watering holes and the chat rooms can we figure out where
> anyone is....and what sequence they are on.
>
> Several years ago, the ARRL removed the legacy HF type rules from VHF
> contesting.? The result has been a renaissance in VHF contesting.? The
> contests are much better now than under the old, restrictive HF type
> rules.? The rovers are MUCH happier as are the smaller stations who now
> have a chance to maximize the potential of their stations.? There were
> numerous problems with the old HF style rules for the VHF contests.? I
> don't know of any problems now.? Unless some serious problem can be
> found, LEAVE THE RULES ALONE!? Don't try to fix something that is NOT
> broken.
>
> 73 Marshall K5QE
>
>
>
> On 9/23/2019 1:20 AM, Mike (KA5CVH) Urich wrote:
> > On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 6:27 PM Dennis Allen <N9TZL at outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> > To me it has removed the radio related skills that one had learned to
> > locate other stations and make Q's. There just are not allot of guys
> > looking around trying to make Q's as before because they are on chat
> > rooms and such making arrangements to make Q's instead of being on the
> > radio which to me has greatly hurt VHF/UHF contesting!!  It has turned
> > into a computer social operating contest not a radio operating
> > contest!!
> >
> > Mike wrote
> >
> > I tend to largely agree.  "To me" ... there there is nothing more
> > gratifying than spinning across the dial ... hearing that weak signal
> > work another station.  You strain to listen to them work two maybe
> > three other stations so you can pull out the call and grid so you know
> > you've got them right and them make your call.  You may have to call
> > them several times before they pull you out of the noise but when
> > you've completed the Q and you are proud of your abilities to listen
> > into the noise pull out the info, and repeatedly call them until you
> > make the exchange.
> >
> > Now "that's" a Q
> >
> > --
> > Mike Urich KA5CVH
> > http://ka5cvh.com
> >
> > STX ASEC - Training
> > PIO Harris County ARES
> >
> > We may be Volunteers,
> > But we're professional.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 06:03:02 -0400
> From: N1BUG <paul at n1bug.com>
> To: newsvhf at mailman.qth.net, VHFcontesting
>         <vhfcontesting at contesting.com>, VHF <vhf at w6yx.stanford.edu>
> Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] CQ frequency advice?
> Message-ID: <4bb20ce0-8efc-9f5e-20bd-3b6a99ca4d0e at n1bug.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> There were many replies. Thanks to all! The below response from
> Gedas probably sums up as well as any.
>
> My CQs in the 144.190 to 144.230 range go unanswered while if I tune
> around I hear plenty of search and pounce stations working others
> down in the NE corridor. I can only assume those stations don't call
> me because they don't hear me. I strongly suspect I have a large
> power advantage over many of them so if they're not hearing me I
> must believe it is a matter of QRM. Every contest I hear 3x the
> number of stations I work. I just haven't found a way to connect
> with them.
>
> It is important to consider the geography. I am way up here in FN55.
> Other than 3 or 4 "locals" in Maine, it is some 200 miles to the
> edge of the activity. The vast majority of workable stations are at
> 200 to 500 miles. I suspect QRM is far worse than I could ever
> imagine, and I'm so far away I am not able to compete with it.
>
> I've said before, going back 35 years, and I will say again: It
> would be very helpful to those of us in outlying areas if there were
> an informal list of known recurring big gun run frequencies so we
> could at least avoid those. I know where some stations like W2SZ run
> because I can hear them. However there are many big stations just
> beyond my range at 500-700 miles that I never hear. I'm told some of
> them have run frequencies they use every contest but I have no way
> of knowing what those frequencies are. Those stations could be a
> major source of QRM for my 300-500 mile QSOs.
>
> I'm going to pick a frequency well removed from 144.200 and try to
> be there every contest. My hope is that eventually word will get
> around and people will know where to look. The only question is
> where. If I go too far from 144.200, people tuning the band will
> probably not find me. Even those with pan displays may not be
> looking high enough. I'm leaning toward 144.237 as a compromise
> between QRM and being findable. If anyone is aware of a problem with
> that PLEASE speak up so I can pick something else.
>
> One last thing. If some of you will help spread the word that would
> be appreciated. I'm not your competition. I will never win a contest
> from up here. I'm there to have some fun and to give YOU a
> multiplier on as many bands as possible.
>
> I will announce my CQ frequency and times (a portion of each hour)
> prior to every contest as a reminder. For tonight's Sprint I will
> call CQ on 144.237 for 10 minutes starting at 15 and 45 minutes past
> the hour. If I am getting callers I will continue past 10 minutes,
> otherwise will go to search and pounce for the remainder of the
> time. I have to put in a long work day so I will probably only be on
> for the first two hours unless conditions are really special.
>
> 73,
> Paul N1BUG FN55MF
>
>
>
> On 9/22/19 12:26 AM, Gedas wrote:
> > Hi Paul. Just one ops opinion/observations here. In my area, which
> > cannot be anything like what it is like in the super congested east
> > coast or NE corridor, a lot of times I will simply stay off of a band
> > like 2m when say a club station withing 20-30 miles of me decides to
> > park on 200 and put out endless CQ's for several days. 59+30signals wipe
> > out my receiver to the point where unless your signal is very strong I
> > will never hear you unless you are very well removed from the calling
> > frequency. Bless their hearts they are trying their best to stir up
> > activity and keep the bands busy but it doesn't work well for all other
> > stations within a grids radius. It's truly a double-edged sword
> situation.
> >
> > I like to hunt around and look for stations calling CQ so I can help
> > them get a distant grid and a Q they would not normally get. I love
> > doing that and the challenges that go along with making 400-600 mile
> > "brute force" CW/SSB QSO's.
> >
> > Also, it seems, to me anyway, just like many of the big gun EME ops, the
> > big gun regular contest stations all seem to have their favorite
> > frequencies and stick with them year after year. On one hand it's kinda
> > bad when freq 144.xxx is a particular ops "frequency" etc. But on the
> > other hand if I am looking for that station I know where to look.?
> > Again, it's good and it's kinda bad.? And, all the other big guns seem
> > to realize this and respect it as they too have "there own" favorite
> > frequency. Of course they will tune around also from time to time but
> > you know what I mean.
> >
> > Given a choice to find a weaker more distant station I will always find
> > you MUCH easier if you are _well_ removed from 200. Being only 100 miles
> > away from Detroit, Chicago, Indy, Dayton, etc you would not believe what
> > 200 can sound like if you have a well equipped station.
> >
> > Also keep in mind that more and more ops these days have pan displays
> > for receive (like I do on my old Flex) and can see the entire SSB
> > portion of the band. As long as our antennas are pointing at each other
> > and we have propagation I will see you and tune to your frequency so my
> > vote is to stay away from 200.I keep a sharp eye on my pan display from
> > 150 to 250. In the olden days I would simply tune back and forth for
> > countless hours until my fingers were numb hunting for stations.
> >
> > Gedas, W8BYA
> >
> > Gallery at http://w8bya.com
> > Light travels faster than sound....
> > This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
> >
> > On 9/21/2019 10:21 PM, N1BUG via VHF wrote:
> >> I'm been giving a lot of thought to ways I might increase QSOs in
> >> future contests and especially find people to run higher bands with.
> >>  From this far north I will never be a competitor. I do this for fun
> >> and a big part of that fun is making QSOs on bands above 2 meters.
> >>
> >> Since my return to VHF three years ago, I have had zero luck calling
> >> CQ on 2 meters. I can easily work stations to 450 or 500 miles doing
> >> search and pounce when I catch them pointed this way, but my CQs go
> >> unanswered. One obvious problem is that I am so far from the
> >> population centers I can only hear most stations when they are
> >> looking this way. That means I cannot tell what frequencies might be
> >> clear enough in or near those population centers for people to hear me.
> >>
> >> My thinking is that for future contests I would announce a CQ
> >> frequency and times in advance, for example "This contest I will
> >> call CQ on 144.xxx for the first 15 minutes of every hour". My
> >> question is, can those of you in the more populated areas offer any
> >> advice on choosing a frequency? Am I better off staying fairly close
> >> to 144.200 or moving up out of the usual range? I think I have a
> >> better chance of avoiding QRM if I move further up, but then
> >> stations tuning the band probably won't find me. I'm not sure how
> >> many of the people I keep missing read these forums and would see a
> >> pre-contest announcement. I know many of them don't use the internet
> >> chat sites. If I stay lower in the band perhaps I have a better
> >> chance of people finding me while tuning but higher risk of not
> >> being heard at all due to QRM. Any thoughts or suggestions would be
> >> appreciated.
> >>
> >> How many of you would make a point of looking for me if you knew
> >> when and where to find me?
> >>
> >> I'm carrying on with renewed resolve and looking forward to several
> >> station improvements over the winter.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Paul N1BUG FN55MF
> >> 6, 2, 222 QRO
> >> 432 moderate power and building
> >> 903, 1296, 10G hopeful
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of VHFcontesting Digest, Vol 201, Issue 23
> **********************************************
>